Should Sheila have been removed from the Bambers' care in 1959 when June became depressed?

[Holly Goodhead]

It takes a certain type of psycho to murder two six-year-old boys as they slept.  Even in the criminal fraternity you would be hard pushed to find anyone who would ever do such a thing.  There was no reason to murder the children, they were no threat to anyone, except JEREMY BAMBER of course!

Unfortunately we don't have Dr Ferguson's witness statements on this forum but if my memory serves me correctly SC told Dr F that she felt threatened by the twins in that she feared they would be violent/have sex with her.  This is clearly a sensitive subject and I would not wish to use the wrong words and quote out of context but I am pretty certain these words or similar with the same meaning were used. 

[puglove]

Based on Dr Ferguson's witness statements there's no record of June having any mental health issues prior to adopting.  She first came to his attention in 1959 when she was admitted to St Andrews psychiatric hospital in Northampton to treat serious depression that stemmed from her decision to adopt.  At this point in time SC was circa 2 yoa and I don't think she could be held responsible for this.

 I don't agree that SC was promiscuous.  Where is the evidence to suggest this was the case?  As far as I can see she did not engage in underage sex or casual sex.  She had a relationship with a farm labourer at WHF which resulted in a pregnancy/termination at 17 yoa.  Soon after this she met CC.  Thereafter it appears she had some sort of relationship with Freddie Emani (spelling?) but even Dr F states it was not clear what the nature of this relationship was.  According to Claire Powell (book author) SC's friends told her that SC was not into casual sex and refer to a couple of brief relationships and its not even clear if these were sexual in nature.  I would hardly describe this as promiscuous from a woman who at the time of her death had been single for many years and was 28 yoa.

Was she a wayward teenager?  She left WHF at 17 for London and just seemed to drift around: finishing college, secretarial college, modelling, hairdressing, shop work, marriage, twins, waitressing, cleaning.  Apart from her use of recreational drugs I am not sure she was much of problem to anyone apart from her mental illness but she can't be held responsible for that?

No idea about any fiasco with JB in New Zealand?  As far as I can see other than the OCP break-in JB's behaviour was exemplary?  One misdemeanour involving the family business, which it seems no one know about other than BW, is unlikely to have caused his parents undue stress?

The caravan park break-in may not necessarily make Bamber a murderer, but it was a particularly cheap and shitty thing to do, and demonstrated his attitude towards the family and the business. He wasn't some silly, thoughtless teenager, he was a grown man with responsibilities and, if his blog-bleats are to be believed, a deep love and respect for Ralph. I would imagine that what he did would have caused enormous stress.

[puglove]

The caravan park break-in may not necessarily make Bamber a murderer, but it was a particularly cheap and shitty thing to do, and demonstrated his attitude towards the family and the business. He wasn't some silly, thoughtless teenager, he was a grown man with responsibilities and, if his blog-bleats are to be believed, a deep love and respect for Ralph. I would imagine that what he did would have caused enormous stress.

But I do agree that Sheila wasn't promiscuous. She was quite an ordinary girl, with a disappointing figure, before the implants, but she had a spectacularly lovely face. And when she wasn't poorly, which was the majority of the time, she totally adored her boys. And don't forget, those boys had brilliant times with Colin, which Sheila sanctioned and never resented. She struggled, why wouldn't she when Colin made a new life, he was her touchstone. But she could always go home, to Ralph.

Sheila shooting Ralph, then beating his poor body with the butt of the gun, is IMO so unlikely it's like having dinner on the moon. Ralph was so much bigger and more powerful, even if his shoulder and arm was damaged, he could have kicked her legs from under her. According to you, Sheila was catatonic, giving Ralph enough time to ring Bamber.

I'm sorry, Holls. You're brilliant at dredging stuff up, from files, but much as I love you, you're pants at explaining all the ins and outs. Fair play to you though, duck!!

[Joanne]

I have to wonder that at what point will Jeremy Bamber have to take responsibility for his actions?
It was Neville's fault because he gave them a good education, flats, houses and cars, it was June fault because she had a mental health issue one Thursday in September, it was Sheila because she had mental health issues, was good looking and had a family, it was the twins fault because they were happy and it wasn't Jeremy's fault because he was work shy, a thief, a liar, played horrible tricks on people (ie tipping sacks of spuds into ditches for someone else to pick up, trying to intimidate his mother by circling her on the bike), wasn't ever satisfied with his lot and was generally a tw...
All this adoption talk is making me quite short tempered. I know several people who have been adopted, all know they were and are all extremely grateful for their upbringing, successful people and have gone on to live full lives without doing a crime.
Two of my brother were adopted out, one is now a housing warden and he's 50 in a couple of weeks, were having a party and the other one has a successful building company in Margate and has worked all over. My father tried to stop both adoptions but in the 60's the father's opinion spoke for nothing and both my brother aren't bitter (at all) about any of what's happened.

[puglove]

I have to wonder that at what point will Jeremy Bamber have to take responsibility for his actions?
It was Neville's fault because he gave them a good education, flats, houses and cars, it was June fault because she had a mental health issue one Thursday in September, it was Sheila because she had mental health issues, was good looking and had a family, it was the twins fault because they were happy and it wasn't Jeremy's fault because he was work shy, a thief, a liar, played horrible tricks on people (ie tipping sacks of spuds into ditches for someone else to pick up, trying to intimidate his mother by circling her on the bike), wasn't ever satisfied with his lot and was generally a tw...
All this adoption talk is making me quite short tempered. I know several people who have been adopted, all know they were and are all extremely grateful for their upbringing, successful people and have gone on to live full lives without doing a crime.
Two of my brother were adopted out, one is now a housing warden and he's 50 in a couple of weeks, were having a party and the other one has a successful building company in Margate and has worked all over. My father tried to stop both adoptions but in the 60's the father's opinion spoke for nothing and both my brother aren't bitter (at all) about any of what's happened.

Fabulous post, Jo. I also get a tad tetchy when adoption is blamed for Sheila turning into the Incredible Hulk. I was due to be adopted until the very last minute, when my mental mother wouldn't sign the forms and took me home. She spent the next 17 years treating me like crap, and allowing any passing boyfriend to beat me like a gong. And worse. I always wished that I'd been adopted. It will be interesting to hear Holly's views on this.

Oh well. Pug pie for breakfast.     

[Holly Goodhead]

I have to wonder that at what point will Jeremy Bamber have to take responsibility for his actions?
It was Neville's fault because he gave them a good education, flats, houses and cars, it was June fault because she had a mental health issue one Thursday in September, it was Sheila because she had mental  ?{)(**because he was work shy, a thief, a liar, played horrible tricks on people (ie tipping sacks of spuds into ditches for someone else to pick up, trying to intimidate his mother by circling her on the bike), wasn't ever satisfied with his lot and was generally a tw...
All this adoption talk is making me quite short tempered. I know several people who have been adopted, all know they were and are all extremely grateful for their upbringing, successful people and have gone on to live full lives without doing a crime.

Two of my brother were adopted out, one is now a housing warden and he's 50 in a couple of weeks, were having a party and the other one has a successful building company in Margate and has worked all over. My father tried to stop both adoptions but in the 60's the father's opinion spoke for nothing and both my brother aren't bitter (at all) about any of what's happened.

Awwww don't get short tempered Joanne just don't bother reading it 

As far as I am aware all professionals eg psychologists, psychiatrists, neuroscientists and others are in agreement that a psychology exists peculiar to 'closed' adoption.  I agree with this.  You clearly disagree and  are entitled to your opinion.  I don't feel short tempered that you disagree with me on adoption or with the case in general.  We are debating a historic crime.  It is not life or death.  As much as I am interested in the case and feel passionate that JB is the victim of a MoJ I could never get short tempered about any of it.

No one is saying that domestic (as opposed to international) adoption per se is wrong and/or harmful.  I have pointed out in posts recently that there are numerous successful adoptees in the public eye:

The late Steve Jobs
Kate Adie
Michael Gove MP (Quite possibly a future candidate to lead the Tory party)
Lord Myners
Debbie Harry (Blondie - showing my age  )

What I am saying is that in the case of the Bamber family SC was put at risk of an attachment disorder due to June's mental illness which was caused by her decision to adopt SC.  Again psychologists, psychiatrists, neuroscientists and others are in agreement that if a baby/infant is subjected to abrupt changes in primary caregivers and/or the primary caregiver is unresponsive then this can give rise to an 'attachment disorder'. Again whether you choose to agree or disagree is up to you.  I am simply the messenger relaying what I have researched and read about this aspect of the case.  Perhaps you can identify professionals who disagree?

I have to accept that the problem is with me in articulating this aspect of the case as I feel a number of posters have misunderstood/misinterpreted the point that I wish to convey.  I am not sure I can be any clearer than what I have posted above so I think I will park this here as there seems little point in going round in circles especially when posters are getting short tempered 

[Holly Goodhead]

Fabulous post, Jo. I also get a tad tetchy when adoption is blamed for Sheila turning into the Incredible Hulk. I was due to be adopted until the very last minute, when my mental mother wouldn't sign the forms and took me home. She spent the next 17 years treating me like crap, and allowing any passing boyfriend to beat me like a gong. And worse. I always wished that I'd been adopted. It will be interesting to hear Holly's views on this.

Oh well. Pug pie for breakfast.     

Awwww puglove sorry to hear this.  You obviously developed good coping mechanisms and that is why you are the lovely person I know you to be.  Oh and a good mummy and grandmummy, witty, with a gsoh, v. intelligent and an all round good egg.

I've made a crap job of articulating my views on adoption.  I think the fact that I have stated that a psychology exists pertaining to domestic 'closed' adoption infers that there's something inherently wrong with it  8-)(--)  This is not necessarily the case.  Like all families whether they be birth, adoptive, step or foster it is largely dependent on the individuals involved. However the majority of the population aren't brought up in a domestic 'closed' adoption so by definition the minority who are undergo a different experience and will take on board a different psychology.  Much the same way as someone who was brought up and lives on a remote island will have a different experience than someone who was brought up and lives in a bustling city  8-)(--)

My concerns with the Bamber family centre around June's mental illness and the reasons for it which I have outlined in previous posts.

[Holly Goodhead]

The caravan park break-in may not necessarily make Bamber a murderer, but it was a particularly cheap and shitty thing to do, and demonstrated his attitude towards the family and the business. He wasn't some silly, thoughtless teenager, he was a grown man with responsibilities and, if his blog-bleats are to be believed, a deep love and respect for Ralph. I would imagine that what he did would have caused enormous stress.

I would never condone the OCP break-in.  How NB and June felt about it I don't know.  Not overjoyed that's for sure.  Possibly hurt and betrayed rather than feeling a sense of shame since no one seemed to know about it outside the immediate family other than BW.  I guess also to some extent it would be dependent on whether or not JB apologised and if he was genuinely remorseful about it.  Do we know if NB made JB repay the money?  Is this perhaps how BW was aware of it?  Perhaps NB said he would have to repay it from his salary?   I guess NB's role as a JP and dealing with all sort of individuals engaging in various misdemeanours made him pragmatic enough to realise that these things happen.  June had also at one point taken in Roly Pargeter (brother to Anthony I assume?) in an attempt to wean him of recreational drugs.  So I guess she was also aware that people aren't perfect including her adopted son and nephew by marriage.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3106

[John]

I understand the point Holly is attempting to make about the adoptions.  I have always found it strange though that they adopted a girl initially and then a boy a few years later.  This undoubtedly put stress on June, stress which was to see her hospitalised as time went on.

Jeremy saw his opportunity in what had happened.  An adoptive mother and sister both with psychiatric problems created the perfect backdrop for what he planned.

Jeremy's break-in at Osea Caravan Park would have been a shock to both Nevill and June with the realisation that the child they had adopted and nurtured for so many years could do such a callous thing to them.  In my opinion, this was the straw which broke the camels back, there was no going back from this, things were about to change and Jeremy knew it.

The time for him to act had arrived!