Author Topic: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?  (Read 52088 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #150 on: April 17, 2014, 11:54:38 AM »
You're mixing up evidence and proof again!

Just noticed the thread title...it says theres no evidence of crime by the parents

Offline sadie

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #151 on: April 17, 2014, 11:56:09 AM »
Yes, so do I, so that they can be got out of the way, once and for all.
Elimination seems to be the name of the game, so the sooner these people of interest are eliminated from enquiries, the better.
Agreed

I just hope that the peeps involved are not sooooo important in PT that they are protected by the PJ and authorities  ?8)@)-)

Untouchables

Offline John

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #152 on: April 17, 2014, 12:14:28 PM »
the thread you removed had M W Thomas criticising the pj...on video..no mistake

Is this the same Mark W Thomas who went on TV and declared that Sheila Caffell was shot with a shotgun?   @)(++(*
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #153 on: April 17, 2014, 12:18:03 PM »
Only certain elements John.

Little doubt about it, the PJ generally were diligent.  Their "superiors " (some) let them down.

Happens in every police force in the world.  Unfortunately, the Offical Secrets Act prevents me from enlightening you.  8(0(*
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #154 on: April 17, 2014, 12:19:42 PM »
Just noticed the thread title...it says theres no evidence of crime by the parents

It's a question Dave and not a statement of fact.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #155 on: April 17, 2014, 12:29:45 PM »
Is this the same Mark W Thomas who went on TV and declared that Sheila Caffell was shot with a shotgun?   @)(++(*

do you have  a link to support your statement

Offline John

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #156 on: April 17, 2014, 12:38:56 PM »
do you have  a link to support your statement

See 5.57 >

Mark Williams-Thomas quote:   "Sheila had two shotgun wounds to her throat"



www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=29.msg3779#msg3779

« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 01:07:03 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Albertini

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #157 on: April 17, 2014, 01:19:45 PM »
Once again you dress up your opinion as fact. Why did Redwood say they were not suspects...the most obvious reason is that they are not suspects. Portugal has also said the same thing. you just can't accept this and want to make up a reason to pretend it isn't true. Who is your very long post supposed to convince? Redwood didn't even have to say anything if he didn't want to.

Redwood has said the McCanns are not suspects..that's a fact.

To quote Edward Gibbons "I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect."

However I will make an exception here for you Dave.

This is the second post of mine you have stated i have used my opinion as fact. The first time you said this i asked you to tell me to back up your sweeping assertion with evidence. You did not and now you say the same about my second post in this thread.

Are you stalking me and my posts?

For the records we know that it is a fact Redwood stated some time ago they were not suspects. We do not know it is a fact that they are not suspects.

Are you able to see and understand the difference?

I have explained in my post why i believe Redwood cannot say they are suspects even if they are. Why can't you respond to my reasoning behind that rather than simply clinging to the "he said they are not suspects" mantra which you always fall back on when you get in a pickle when your rabid desire to respond to my posts overtakes your thinking power.

Online Wonderfulspam

« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 01:54:05 PM by Wonderfulspam »
Christian Brueckner Fan Club

Offline Mr Gray

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #159 on: April 17, 2014, 07:08:45 PM »
To quote Edward Gibbons "I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect."

However I will make an exception here for you Dave.

This is the second post of mine you have stated i have used my opinion as fact. The first time you said this i asked you to tell me to back up your sweeping assertion with evidence. You did not and now you say the same about my second post in this thread.

Are you stalking me and my posts?

For the records we know that it is a fact Redwood stated some time ago they were not suspects. We do not know it is a fact that they are not suspects.

Are you able to see and understand the difference?

I have explained in my post why i believe Redwood cannot say they are suspects even if they are. Why can't you respond to my reasoning behind that rather than simply clinging to the "he said they are not suspects" mantra which you always fall back on when you get in a pickle when your rabid desire to respond to my posts overtakes your thinking power.
I haven't been spending so much time on here but happy to support my statement that you are posting your opinion as fact...I will look back now and provide the evidence

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #160 on: April 17, 2014, 07:09:48 PM »
The statement about the 'kid being dumped'  made no mention as to the perpetrator. Why, therefore, are you assuming that Smithman was known to the Tapas group?
Well if he wasn't one of the Tapas group then he wasn't Gerry McCann.  And if it wasn't Gerry, and the child had had a fatal accident sometime earlier that evening and the alarm was raised at 10pm then when does one suppose the "kid" was "dumped"?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #161 on: April 17, 2014, 07:13:59 PM »
I haven't been spending so much time on here but happy to support my statement that you are posting your opinion as fact...I will look back now and provide the evidence

Albertini wrote...

"The point you are conveniently missing or dismissing is that the investigation was incomplete . It was curtailed at the point of the PJ wanting to test the veracity of the witnesses oral statements and was stopped by those very witnesses, which in itself is hugely suggestive.

Had the group taken part and been unable to explain the discrepancies more evidence could have been uncovered as a consequence.

I'm not and have never said they are guilty. I'm saying the original investigation needed to be completed and that they need to answer questions and be tested as to the veracity of their original statements.

I'm saying they should be treated as suspects as the last people and only witnesses to the event and being the people, I believe, are statistically more likely to have been involved than a stranger, up to and until clear definitive and independently corroborated evidence comes to light which backs up their version of events. Which is not just to be applied to the McCann's but any other person in any other crime investigated by the police and a cornerstone of investigation good practice.

This is not about a witch hunt against the MCCann's, it's about them being treated and investigated  in the same way anyone else would be in a similar situation. It's about witnesses not being able to corrupt and frustrate official investigations into a small child's disappearance for their own unknown motives.

I'm sure that is the position of most McCann sceptics.

That does not mean however we cannot come up with our own hypotheses based on the evidence we have before us.

In relation to the SY announcement made months ago it's starting to get tedious. Let's be clear  given the reopening of the case Andy Redwood had no choice but to say they were not suspects even if this was not true. He could not say anything else.

For him to say they were suspects when his investigation was just starting would have been both unprofessional and prejudicial to any future court case. How many investigations start by naming suspects? SY have to build their own case against their suspects from their own evidence gathered not by reviewing another country's police force and saying " well the PJ didn't gain enough evidence to take to a court so let's announce to the world the McCann's are suspects based on that same evidence".

To announce that would have increased the media interest in the case making it incredibly difficult for the investigation to function.

Let's also be clear we have not seen any files on the SY investigation or the PJ re-investigation so we cannot make assumptions until we see evidence brought to a court or released files. We have no evidence whatsoever of any relevant witnesses being reinterviewed either.

We have media briefings to the effect of the McCann's not being suspects which could or could not be true,  and which also could be revised later as the investigation progresses.

The media stated direction of the investigation does not necessarily encompass all the Yard's thinking and it is entirely possible that the investigation is looking at multiple theories and suspects. In fact didn't Recwood admit as much in his recent statement about Madeleine not leaving the apartment alive?

Certainly the yard will need at some point to resolve the issues in the statements if they want to bring a third party suspect to court. A defence lawyer could say for example, "how did my client get into the apartment when Rachel Oldfield said in her statement the shutter was down on the patio window."

In order to convict an abductor these issues will need to be ironed out before they go to court.

So I think the more nuanced approach is to keep ones powder dry about Redwood's proclamation until such time as a suspect is brought before a court. "

Statement in red is your opinion not fact...point proved


Offline jassi

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #162 on: April 17, 2014, 07:31:36 PM »
Well if he wasn't one of the Tapas group then he wasn't Gerry McCann.  And if it wasn't Gerry, and the child had had a fatal accident sometime earlier that evening and the alarm was raised at 10pm then when does one suppose the "kid" was "dumped"?

I suppose it depends on whether you believe Smithman was carrying Madeleine, which would tie the time in pretty accurately.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Carana

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #163 on: April 17, 2014, 07:41:16 PM »
The point you are conveniently missing or dismissing is that the investigation was incomplete . It was curtailed at the point of the PJ wanting to test the veracity of the witnesses oral statements and was stopped by those very witnesses, which in itself is hugely suggestive.

Had the group taken part and been unable to explain the discrepancies more evidence could have been uncovered as a consequence.

I'm not and have never said they are guilty. I'm saying the original investigation needed to be completed and that they need to answer questions and be tested as to the veracity of their original statements.

I'm saying they should be treated as suspects as the last people and only witnesses to the event and being the people, I believe, are statistically more likely to have been involved than a stranger, up to and until clear definitive and independently corroborated evidence comes to light which backs up their version of events. Which is not just to be applied to the McCann's but any other person in any other crime investigated by the police and a cornerstone of investigation good practice.

This is not about a witch hunt against the MCCann's, it's about them being treated and investigated  in the same way anyone else would be in a similar situation. It's about witnesses not being able to corrupt and frustrate official investigations into a small child's disappearance for their own unknown motives.

I'm sure that is the position of most McCann sceptics.

That does not mean however we cannot come up with our own hypotheses based on the evidence we have before us.

In relation to the SY announcement made months ago it's starting to get tedious. Let's be clear  given the reopening of the case Andy Redwood had no choice but to say they were not suspects even if this was not true. He could not say anything else.

For him to say they were suspects when his investigation was just starting would have been both unprofessional and prejudicial to any future court case. How many investigations start by naming suspects? SY have to build their own case against their suspects from their own evidence gathered not by reviewing another country's police force and saying " well the PJ didn't gain enough evidence to take to a court so let's announce to the world the McCann's are suspects based on that same evidence".

To announce that would have increased the media interest in the case making it incredibly difficult for the investigation to function.

Let's also be clear we have not seen any files on the SY investigation or the PJ re-investigation so we cannot make assumptions until we see evidence brought to a court or released files. We have no evidence whatsoever of any relevant witnesses being reinterviewed either.

We have media briefings to the effect of the McCann's not being suspects which could or could not be true,  and which also could be revised later as the investigation progresses.

The media stated direction of the investigation does not necessarily encompass all the Yard's thinking and it is entirely possible that the investigation is looking at multiple theories and suspects. In fact didn't Recwood admit as much in his recent statement about Madeleine not leaving the apartment alive?

Certainly the yard will need at some point to resolve the issues in the statements if they want to bring a third party suspect to court. A defence lawyer could say for example, "how did my client get into the apartment when Rachel Oldfield said in her statement the shutter was down on the patio window."

In order to convict an abductor these issues will need to be ironed out before they go to court.

So I think the more nuanced approach is to keep ones powder dry about Redwood's proclamation until such time as a suspect is brought before a court.

To simply keep repeating "but Andy says they're not suspects" is tedious and intellectually flatulant if one is to apply a bit of thought and logic to what was said and why it was said.

I disagree.

The police are quite capable of being vague when someone may still be a suspect: e…g, "All possibilities are still under investigation...".

In the Jo Yeates case, the police stated that the boyfriend was not a suspect - they had somehow eliminated him.

Offline Albertini

Re: No evidence of any crime by the parents and no evidence of an abduction?
« Reply #164 on: April 17, 2014, 07:45:23 PM »
Albertini wrote...

"The point you are conveniently missing or dismissing is that the investigation was incomplete . It was curtailed at the point of the PJ wanting to test the veracity of the witnesses oral statements and was stopped by those very witnesses, which in itself is hugely suggestive.

Had the group taken part and been unable to explain the discrepancies more evidence could have been uncovered as a consequence.

I'm not and have never said they are guilty. I'm saying the original investigation needed to be completed and that they need to answer questions and be tested as to the veracity of their original statements.

I'm saying they should be treated as suspects as the last people and only witnesses to the event and being the people, I believe, are statistically more likely to have been involved than a stranger, up to and until clear definitive and independently corroborated evidence comes to light which backs up their version of events. Which is not just to be applied to the McCann's but any other person in any other crime investigated by the police and a cornerstone of investigation good practice.

This is not about a witch hunt against the MCCann's, it's about them being treated and investigated  in the same way anyone else would be in a similar situation. It's about witnesses not being able to corrupt and frustrate official investigations into a small child's disappearance for their own unknown motives.

I'm sure that is the position of most McCann sceptics.

That does not mean however we cannot come up with our own hypotheses based on the evidence we have before us.

In relation to the SY announcement made months ago it's starting to get tedious. Let's be clear  given the reopening of the case Andy Redwood had no choice but to say they were not suspects even if this was not true. He could not say anything else.

For him to say they were suspects when his investigation was just starting would have been both unprofessional and prejudicial to any future court case. How many investigations start by naming suspects? SY have to build their own case against their suspects from their own evidence gathered not by reviewing another country's police force and saying " well the PJ didn't gain enough evidence to take to a court so let's announce to the world the McCann's are suspects based on that same evidence".

To announce that would have increased the media interest in the case making it incredibly difficult for the investigation to function.

Let's also be clear we have not seen any files on the SY investigation or the PJ re-investigation so we cannot make assumptions until we see evidence brought to a court or released files. We have no evidence whatsoever of any relevant witnesses being reinterviewed either.

We have media briefings to the effect of the McCann's not being suspects which could or could not be true,  and which also could be revised later as the investigation progresses.

The media stated direction of the investigation does not necessarily encompass all the Yard's thinking and it is entirely possible that the investigation is looking at multiple theories and suspects. In fact didn't Recwood admit as much in his recent statement about Madeleine not leaving the apartment alive?

Certainly the yard will need at some point to resolve the issues in the statements if they want to bring a third party suspect to court. A defence lawyer could say for example, "how did my client get into the apartment when Rachel Oldfield said in her statement the shutter was down on the patio window."

In order to convict an abductor these issues will need to be ironed out before they go to court.

So I think the more nuanced approach is to keep ones powder dry about Redwood's proclamation until such time as a suspect is brought before a court. "

Statement in red is your opinion not fact...point proved

I never said it was a fact, of course it is an opinion. Where do I state something as a fact which is actually an opinion?

You said the same about my previous post but didn't comment on that post.

So point not proved as usual.