Author Topic: Could a child really be buried so quickly and never be found?  (Read 19652 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Could a child really be buried so quickly and never be found?
« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2014, 11:51:04 AM »
If someone had wanted to dispose of a small body quickly, stuffing it in a rubbish bag and dumping it in one of the big rubbish containers would seem easier than digging a hole.

How thoroughly could 188 large containers in PdL and surrounding areas have been inspected by 5 people in a single day?

This inspection apparently took place on 7 May. Would they have been emptied prior to that or not?

12-Processos Vol XII Page 3183

TRANSLATION BY INES
12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3183
Service Information

2007/05/07

To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

From: J. C. Franco, Inspector


Subject: Verification of Rubbish Containers


I hereby bring to your notice, that on this date, I the undersigned, together with Inspector Luis Piedade as well as three employees from the Lagos Municipal Chamber, responsible for rubbish collection from Praia da Luz, went to P da L and carried out a detailed check of all the rubbish containers in the area, including the underground containers, as well as in surrounding areas, a total of 188 containers were checked, nothing was found of interest to the NUIPC 201.07 OGALGS investigation.

Signed


Inspector J.C. Franco



http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUBBISH.htm

Smithman would've used an already made hole or trench near to the church re pipe laying, building site behind etc. That's what they'll be thinking happened not that he started digging at 10:05. Cadaver dogs should check the landfill.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 11:59:32 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: Could a child really be buried so quickly and never be found?
« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2014, 12:06:54 PM »
So you think the PJ would agree to dig up a resort just because they have refused to let the Yard check some burglars houses and bank accounts?

Haha! That's funny, it's nonsense of course but funny nonesense.

I believe it came as a surprise to the Portuguese authorities that NSY accepted their permission to dig in the environs of PdaL.

I believe they were expected to refuse as it is obvious there are many other lines of inquiry they wish to follow and probably wished to pursue before reaching this point.
I believe digging was probably the last item on their agenda and possibly would not have been required if other leads had proved fruitful.

However as far as I can make out, without exception ~ all the areas under discussion are areas of interest indicated by the original investigators.
So carrying out the work now ~ which it would have been more relevant to carry out in 2007 ~ IMO serves to highlight the failings of the original investigation.  I think it is an own goal.

Anyway, I'm glad to have cheered up your morning and given you a laugh.   8)--))
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Carana

Re: Could a child really be buried so quickly and never be found?
« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2014, 02:32:54 PM »
Smithman would've used an already made hole or trench near to the church re pipe laying, building site behind etc. That's what they'll be thinking happened not that he started digging at 10:05. Cadaver dogs should check the landfill.

Seven years later???

I don't find that realistic.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 02:38:26 PM by Carana »

Offline Albertini

Re: Could a child really be buried so quickly and never be found?
« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2014, 03:31:49 PM »
I believe it came as a surprise to the Portuguese authorities that NSY accepted their permission to dig in the environs of PdaL.

What makes you think they were surprised? Why would the PJ be surprised that the Yard accepted their approval of the Yard's request?? That makes no sense.

I believe they were expected to refuse as it is obvious there are many other lines of inquiry they wish to follow and probably wished to pursue before reaching this point.
I believe digging was probably the last item on their agenda and possibly would not have been required if other leads had proved fruitful.

So you think the Yard asked on  the basis that they thought it would be turned down?

Don't you think it is far more likely the PT authorities believed this request had more foundation to it than the others?

However as far as I can make out, without exception ~ all the areas under discussion are areas of interest indicated by the original investigators.
So carrying out the work now ~ which it would have been more relevant to carry out in 2007 ~ IMO serves to highlight the failings of the original investigation.  I think it is an own goal.

Anyway, I'm glad to have cheered up your morning and given you a laugh.   8)--))
The original investigation was criticised for concentrating too much on what happened around PDL by supporters of the family and the family themselves.

Indeed as Gerry says:

"As you know, the Spanish border is only about 90 minutes away and we felt, if Madeleine had been moved quickly, our chances of finding her with a local investigation only would be quite slim. Therefore we wanted an international campaign as much as possible and for people to be aware of her being missing."

But now you are trying to argue the original investigation "failed" because it didn't find this evidence in PDL back in 2007 BUT you the family and your fellow McCann supporters said before last week that the investigation failed because it didn't go international and because it wanted to concentrate solely on events in or around PDL.

That's utter revisionism and hypocrisy.

Seems we've been seeing a fair bit of that on this forum over the last few days. 
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 03:39:25 PM by Albertini »

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Could a child really be buried so quickly and never be found?
« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2014, 03:33:39 PM »
Smithman would've used an already made hole or trench near to the church re pipe laying, building site behind etc. That's what they'll be thinking happened not that he started digging at 10:05. Cadaver dogs should check the landfill.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1866.0
Christian Brueckner Fan Club

Offline Brietta

Re: Could a child really be buried so quickly and never be found?
« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2014, 04:30:26 PM »
What makes you think they were surprised? Why would the PJ be surprised that the Yard accepted their approval of the Yard's request?? That makes no sense.

So you think the Yard asked on  the basis that they thought it would be turned down?

Don't you think it is far more likely the PT authorities believed this request had more foundation to it than the others?
The original investigation was criticised for concentrating too much on what happened around PDL by supporters of the family and the family themselves.

Indeed as Gerry says:

"As you know, the Spanish border is only about 90 minutes away and we felt, if Madeleine had been moved quickly, our chances of finding her with a local investigation only would be quite slim. Therefore we wanted an international campaign as much as possible and for people to be aware of her being missing."

But now you are trying to argue the original investigation "failed" because it didn't find this evidence in PDL back in 2007 BUT you the family and your fellow McCann supporters said before last week that the investigation failed because it didn't go international and because it wanted to concentrate solely on events in or around PDL.

That's utter revisionism and hypocrisy.

Seems we've been seeing a fair bit of that on this forum over the last few days.

What makes you think they were surprised? Why would the PJ be surprised that the Yard accepted their approval of the Yard's request?? That makes no sense.

Do you think it was the intention to have digs of this nature going on during the tourist season?

So you think the Yard asked on  the basis that they thought it would be turned down?
Don't you think it is far more likely the PT authorities believed this request had more foundation to it than the others? 


I don’t know if you deliberately misinterpret what I am saying or if I am not making myself clear enough. 

NSY made this request along with many others in the expectation that the Portuguese authorities would accede to all the requests or the majority. 

It seems that has not happened and access has been denied for most if not all and as far as we can know except for this one. There can be no doubt NSY has been obstructed from carrying out elementary investigation to rule evidence in or out.

The original investigation was criticised for concentrating too much on what happened around PDL by supporters of the family and the family themselves. etc

I won’t go through the recognised protocols usual when a child goes missing, merely to say that it must be highly unusual not to alert borders and check vehicles when the initial search must be for a living child.

That's utter revisionism and hypocrisy.

I have absolutely no idea why you think that comment is relevant to anything, I find it applicable to nothing posted by me.

Let's get this straight and I hope I make myself understood this time
NSY submitted letters of request to enable them to carry out their investigation on Portuguese soil under the lead of the PJ
Within that list was a request to dig should that prove necessary
IMO the request to dig is the only request that has been approved
IMO it was not expected by the Portuguese that NSY would agree to dig because the psyche of the Brits wasn't taken into consideration, I think it was expected they would refuse.

I don't think you have come up with anything to refute my opinion.



 
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Air Con

Re: Could a child really be buried so quickly and never be found?
« Reply #81 on: May 10, 2014, 05:26:34 PM »
As we don't know what was in the ILOR's there is no way it can be said that the majority of requests in them have been turned down.

For all we know they may have all contained the same requests but with additional information each time in order to get the requests approved.

Apart from the three burglars the digging may have been the only other request.

Offline Albertini

Re: Could a child really be buried so quickly and never be found?
« Reply #82 on: May 10, 2014, 05:44:25 PM »
What makes you think they were surprised? Why would the PJ be surprised that the Yard accepted their approval of the Yard's request?? That makes no sense.

Do you think it was the intention to have digs of this nature going on during the tourist season?

I think we have not been told in advance about the digs in the same way we were about the burglars. That should give some indication as to the nature of the evidence and information underpinning these particular requests.  I also think the request was agreed to because it had significant enough foundation with which to help resolve this case, irrespective of whether it was tourist season or not.

I do not accept at all that SY threw in this request as some sort of carpet bombing strategy to see which ones they could get the PT to agree to.

That is a nonsense.

So you think the Yard asked on  the basis that they thought it would be turned down?
Don't you think it is far more likely the PT authorities believed this request had more foundation to it than the others? 


I don’t know if you deliberately misinterpret what I am saying or if I am not making myself clear enough. 

NSY made this request along with many others in the expectation that the Portuguese authorities would accede to all the requests or the majority. 

It seems that has not happened and access has been denied for most if not all and as far as we can know except for this one. There can be no doubt NSY has been obstructed from carrying out elementary investigation to rule evidence in or out.

No i am not misinterpreting anything i am replying directly to your written words. You did say after all:

I believe it came as a surprise to the Portuguese authorities that NSY accepted their permission to dig in the environs of PdaL.

We do not know if this request was made at the same time as the others at all. I would argue given the helicopter business and the SY team being there last week that this request was made some time, given it needed approval.

So we cannot say it was one of many requests made at the same time.

We also have no evidence of obstruction. What we have is the Portuguese authorities requiring sufficient evidence to cede to SY's requests. One can only presume that the evidence presented to the Portuguese for the other requests was not sufficient to satisfy the requirements under Portuguese law.

That is not obstruction, it is about the Police of one country having to respect the law and due process of another country it wants to try and operate in.

The original investigation was criticised for concentrating too much on what happened around PDL by supporters of the family and the family themselves. etc

I won’t go through the recognised protocols usual when a child goes missing, merely to say that it must be highly unusual not to alert borders and check vehicles when the initial search must be for a living child.

Well let's be clear Gerry McCann wanted and stated the border closing, can you show me a protocol where a country any country does that when a child goes missing.

The point is for 7 years supporters of the family castigated the investigation for concentrating on the events and inhabitants in and around PDL too much, and that they should have widened the investigation scope to include boats, cars, Morocco and Victoria Beckham look alikes around the world.

Now that digs are planned in PDL the supporters of the family are now blaming the PJ for not investigating enough around PDL!

That's hypocriosy and revisionism. 

That's utter revisionism and hypocrisy.

I have absolutely no idea why you think that comment is relevant to anything, I find it applicable to nothing posted by me.

Let's get this straight and I hope I make myself understood this time
NSY submitted letters of request to enable them to carry out their investigation on Portuguese soil under the lead of the PJ
Within that list was a request to dig should that prove necessary
IMO the request to dig is the only request that has been approved
IMO it was not expected by the Portuguese that NSY would agree to dig because the psyche of the Brits wasn't taken into consideration, I think it was expected they would refuse.

I don't think you have come up with anything to refute my opinion.

There is no evidence one large shopping list of requests was sent in one lump.
We do not have any evidence to know if any other requests were approved. We have no evidence that states ALL other requests were turned down.
I am sorry but your opinion about Portugal not expecting SY to accept the permission that the Portuguese gave to the request that SY made to dig is just, frankly, preposterous.

I am saying it is my opinion and indeed common sense that SY provided a request to dig, provided the evidence they had, and perhaps in conjunction with the information already gathered by the PJ, they agreed to dig.

I can't see the logic in SY asking for a request and then being surprised it was accepted nor that Portugal was then surprised that the Yard took them up on it.

It just makes no sense.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 06:07:11 PM by Albertini »

Cariad

  • Guest
Re: Could a child really be buried so quickly and never be found?
« Reply #83 on: May 10, 2014, 05:58:09 PM »
snip////


 
I am sorry but your opinion about Portugal not expecting SY to accept the permission that the Portuguese gave to the request that SY made to dig is just, frankly, preposterous.

I am saying it is my opinion and indeed common sense that SY provided a request to dig, provided the evidence they had, and perhaps in conjunction with the information already gathered by the PJ, they agreed to dig.

I can't see the logic in SY asking for a request and then being surprised it was accepted nor that Portugal was then surprised that the Yard took them up on it.

It just makes no sense.

I completely agree with this. I doubt very much that Andy Redwood is playing some sort of game that involves asking for things he doesn't want!

If you want to ignore professionalism, competency, reputation and everything SY has on the line by making requests that they don't really want, just think of the expense! Goodness knows how much that helicopter cost, but they don't come cheap.


Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Could a child really be buried so quickly and never be found?
« Reply #84 on: May 10, 2014, 06:24:12 PM »
Is that the answer where an abductor kept the child near to PDL for days/weeks/months then returned to the scene of the crime at some point in the future to bury the child out of choice right at the epicentre of the investigation?

Is that the answer you're clinging to?
that's where you've decided Madeleine is buried is it?  Just to remind you, I said that I doubted her remains would be found in that area you keep on about, but I do think they will be found in the PdL environs, more likely within the grounds of the home of whoever took her.

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Could a child really be buried so quickly and never be found?
« Reply #85 on: May 10, 2014, 07:21:35 PM »
Smithman would've used an already made hole or trench near to the church re pipe laying, building site behind etc. That's what they'll be thinking happened not that he started digging at 10:05. Cadaver dogs should check the landfill.


Topic : After the Smiths sighting - Where could this mystery man have gone? Land or Sea?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1764.15
Christian Brueckner Fan Club

Offline VIXTE

Re: Could a child really be buried so quickly and never be found?
« Reply #86 on: May 11, 2014, 12:23:46 AM »
If the SY wants to dig in PDL this could mean they suspect someone specific and that person
1. Does not have a car
2. or cannot leave PDL due to work or health or other reasons.

The question actually should be why SY wants to dig in PDL and who would place a corpse in these areas.

Silkywhiskers

  • Guest
Re: Could a child really be buried so quickly and never be found?
« Reply #87 on: May 11, 2014, 12:28:16 AM »
So back to the original question -

could a child be buried that quickly?

Answer is a resounding YES.

She may not even have been buried straight away, at 10pm. 

If I wanted to hide a dead little girl, I might throw her in a vacant lot.

People will be looking for a live child, one who can answer calls.  If the grass was long, it could just be pulled over her, temporarily.

Folks forget that the McCanns were 100% alone from 3am.

They went for a walk alone at 6am.   No one saw them, everyone else in PDL was asleep. [...moderated ...]

The cadaver dogs hadn't yet been in, just the search dogs.  Looking for a live child, not a dead one.  They found her scent but it stopped and could have been left any time over the holiday anyway.

I would like to know if Eddie was walked over any of these areas, and if he was, what did he indicate?

Does anyone know?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 03:41:14 AM by John »

Offline John

Re: Could a child really be buried so quickly and never be found?
« Reply #88 on: May 11, 2014, 12:30:49 AM »
Smithman would've used an already made hole or trench near to the church re pipe laying, building site behind etc. That's what they'll be thinking happened not that he started digging at 10:05. Cadaver dogs should check the landfill.

I don't believe for a moment that the abductor, if there was one, had a premeditated plan to lift a kid, murder her and then bury her. None of that makes any sense.  SY won't find anything of significance in public areas in Praia da Luz because it would have been far too risky to bury her where he might be seen.  If she is buried within the town boundary she is most likely to have been buried on private property hidden away from public gaze.  Remember too that the GNR and their dogs conducted a very wide search for her the next day but found nothing.

My own view however is that she was sedated and taken away in a vehicle of some sort.  To answer the op therefore, I don't believe that a child could be buried so quickly and never found.  Seems the Portuguese police feel the same.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 12:36:08 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline VIXTE

Re: Could a child really be buried so quickly and never be found?
« Reply #89 on: May 11, 2014, 12:33:49 AM »
So back to the original question -

could a child be buried that quickly?

Answer is a resounding YES.

She may not even have been buried straight away, at 10pm. 

If I wanted to hide a dead little girl, I might throw her in a vacant lot.

People will be looking for a live child, one who can answer calls.  If the grass was long, it could just be pulled over her, temporarily.

Folks forget that the McCanns were 100% alone from 3am.

They went for a walk alone at 6am.   No one saw them, everyone else in PDL was asleep. [... moderated ...]

The cadaver dogs hadn't yet been in, just the search dogs.  Looking for a live child, not a dead one.  They found her scent but it stopped and could have been left any time over the holiday anyway.

She could have been in someone's house for days.

To bury her quickly people would need equipment and also it would be visible on them that they did the digging... on their shoes, clothes etc, possibly even their cars.

Person might had had a car but he could not leave PDL to not to cause suspicion.

There are no many people in PDL who could have had the equipment, time and who could had made a hole in the ground in these spots.

It would be noticed, by their friends, partners, relatives, work colleagues, fellow tourists.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 03:43:05 AM by John »