Was Sheila Seen In The Kichen By EP?

[Holly Goodhead]

Certainly not with a gunshot wound.  This has effectively been ruled out by Dr Vanezis, the pathologist.

Could Sheila have been seen in the kitchen, slumped and dozing or in some subdued state?  Then hearing EP move in did she move upstairs, seek out the bible for solace and shoot herself twice?

Did Sheila's body, as found by EP, lend to this scenario?

I think it unlikely and that reports by EP noting a female in the kitchen were simply a mistaken identity which resulted in an administrative error on the log but it would be good to rule this out. 

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[Holly Goodhead]

What was the time difference between the 'female' sighted in the kitchen and the raid team identifying SC in the main bedroom?  Minutes I think?  Surely if SC was found so soon after death we would have heard more about the obvious signs?  By all accounts she died after the other victims, but so close to being identified? 

[John]

There only was one person lying slumped with their head in the coal shuttle and that was Nevill.  His long hair covering his face gave the impression to the policeman who managed a fleeting glance in the kitchen window that it was a female.  One has to remember that Jeremy had the cops all wound up about Sheila running around the house with a gun.

[scipio_usmc]

Certainly not with a gunshot wound.  This has effectively been ruled out by Dr Vanezis, the pathologist.

Could Sheila have been seen in the kitchen, slumped and dozing or in some subdued state?  Then hearing EP move in did she move upstairs, seek out the bible for solace and shoot herself twice?

Did Sheila's body, as found by EP, lend to this scenario?

I think it unlikely and that reports by EP noting a female in the kitchen were simply a mistaken identity which resulted in an administrative error on the log but it would be good to rule this out.

Only one body was seen in the kitchen, a person with gray hair.  Upon entering they actually got to inspect such body and it turned out to be Nevill. Sheila didn't have gray hair so it can't have been her that was seen and since only one body was seen, one body foudn upon entering it is rather obvious it is Nevill that was seen.

The claim about 2 bodies and a body being moved is a desperate attempt to say Sheila was alive at the time the police entered because then Jeremy can't have shot her.

There is no evidence to establish she didnt die around the same time as the rest.  So some supporters try to invent some by insisting she was alive much longer and the proof is police saw her when they looked in the windows.

The problem is they are relying on reports from people not on the scene instead of witness statements.  Teh witness statements rather easily deomonstrate there was one body, they thought it was an elderly female but upon inspecting it found out it was a male. Moreover the witness statemens note 2 women found in the master bedroom.

This is one of those issues where Bamber proponents are harming their own credibility twisting like this.  It makes it harder to take them serious on the significant issues. 

[goatboy]

Does anyone actually believe Jeremy and the police saw someone at the upstairs window outside WHF? I suspect the idea was planted by Jeremy-remember, he was presenting the seige situation to the police but he knew very well what had actually happened. What better a way to spook the officer and reinforce the story than by pretending he'd seen someone at the window? At this stage why would the officer disbelieve him?

[scipio_usmc]

Does anyone actually believe Jeremy and the police saw someone at the upstairs window outside WHF? I suspect the idea was planted by Jeremy-remember, he was presenting the seige situation to the police but he knew very well what had actually happened. What better a way to spook the officer and reinforce the story than by pretending he'd seen someone at the window? At this stage why would the officer disbelieve him?

The police themselves say that they didn't see anything they just turned their heads and that gave the impression of movement.  They said it was silent and they heard nothing, they would have heard if any shots had been fired.

If Jeremy had seen movement he would have been crapping his pants and I doubt have mentioned it because police might then have gone inside to reach this living person.

 

[Holly Goodhead]

Does anyone actually believe Jeremy and the police saw someone at the upstairs window outside WHF? I suspect the idea was planted by Jeremy-remember, he was presenting the seige situation to the police but he knew very well what had actually happened. What better a way to spook the officer and reinforce the story than by pretending he'd seen someone at the window? At this stage why would the officer disbelieve him?

According to PS Bewes it was PC Myalls that spotted 'movement' at the window.  See 3.40 in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPRd912xv9M&feature=youtube_gdata_player

We will never know...Was it SC or some sort of optical illusion caused by light reflection or all in the mind?

What is interesting is those that believe JB guilty also believe JB drew attention to 'movement' at the window in an attempt to further embellish his narrative. 

 

[scipio_usmc]

According to PS Bewes it was PC Myalls that spotted 'movement' at the window.  See 3.40 in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPRd912xv9M&feature=youtube_gdata_player

We will never know...Was it SC or some sort of optical illusion caused by light reflection or all in the mind?

What is interesting is those that believe JB guilty also believe JB drew attention to 'movement' at the window in an attempt to further embellish his narrative. 

 

That is because a police statement indicated it went down that way plus the fact he killed Sheila means she can't have been alive to move.   

It is not conceivable that police would be out there all that time waiting and yet not hear a gunshot or gunshots fired by a gun without a suppressor.  It is not like they were in the city with traffic rushing by and even in the city people hear shots despite the background noise.

I have no doubt that Jeremy made sure they were dead before he left so that there was no way any of them could talk. 

[Holly Goodhead]

That is because a police statement indicated it went down that way plus the fact he killed Sheila means she can't have been alive to move.   

It is not conceivable that police would be out there all that time waiting and yet not hear a gunshot or gunshots fired by a gun without a suppressor.  It is not like they were in the city with traffic rushing by and even in the city people hear shots despite the background noise.

I have no doubt that Jeremy made sure they were dead before he left so that there was no way any of them could talk.

Scipio I am so glad you haven't just dumped us in favour of Blue. 

A .22 rifle firing subsonic ammunition (the type said to have been used at WHF) does not produce a great deal of noise even without a sound moderator fitted, because there is no "crack" which is caused by high velocity ammunition.  With a Parker Hale sound moderator there is a reduction in sound but this reduction is less for a semiautomatic rifle (like the Anschutz used at WHF) than for a bolt action rifle.  I can see little if any benefit to an assassin in using a sound moderator/silencer in the circumstances prevailing that night at WHF.  I very much doubt if a silencer was fitted to the rifle at any stage.

25 shots fired and no one from the neighbouring cottages heard a thing.

[Myster]

Think laterally... what if he didn't want to wake the rest of the family if say the twins were the initial targets, or Sheila and the twins if the parents were first in line?

Firing the rifle inside one bedroom with the sound bouncing off the walls is likely to be heard in another close by.

[Holly Goodhead]

Think laterally... what if he didn't want to wake the rest of the family if say the twins were the initial targets, or Sheila and the twins if the parents were first in line?

Firing the rifle inside one bedroom with the sound bouncing off the walls is likely to be heard in another close by.

Hahaha many will argue I struggle to think literally let alone laterally

Myster I have no real idea.  I copied the above from NGB! 

The jury were taken to a shooting range (outside) to hear the sound of the gun with and without a silencer but it seems odd to me that an indoors facility wasn't made available.  Surely the soc needed to replicated as far as possible with the sound measured?  Anything else sounds a bit amateurish?

[Tim Invictus]

Let's not quote NGB or any other of the Bamberettes! There's a couple of decent people over at Tesco's but most are an unsavoury bunch!

[Myster]

An Anschutz 525 (with moderator fitted) fired outside is noisy close up, perhaps even more so inside the confines of WHF, especially if bullets are shot in rapid succession, as I suspect they were that night. Maybe JB thought whatever he could do to reduce the noise even by a small amount, the more success he'd have in carrying out his plan.

I've linked to this vid once before, but judge for yourself... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo

[John]

25 shots fired and no one from the neighbouring cottages heard a thing.

I wonder if any of them did hear shots?  If they did they probably thought there is Bamber out again shooting these pesky rabbits.

[Holly Goodhead]

I wonder if any of them did hear shots?  If they did they probably thought there is Bamber out again shooting these pesky rabbits.

I believe a man walking his dog heard a shot circa 10.30pm but then in the countryside this wouldn't be unusual and probably difficult to pinpoint the exact location of the sound. 

The main bedroom window was open and the nearby cottages are very close.  The occupants of the cottages probably had their windows open too as it was the height of summer.

It seems crazy to mind that we have no decibel for the sound with and without a silencer based on the said weapon/ammo fired within a building.