Author Topic: So what is the evidence for abduction?  (Read 157897 times)

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stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #90 on: May 16, 2014, 12:30:31 PM »
Kid is missing, parents have an alibi. Looks like abduction to me.

Parents have an 'alibi' not tested in court.

We also do not know what happened' in the apartment. >@@(*&)


Offline Mr Gray

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #91 on: May 16, 2014, 12:40:11 PM »
Parents have an 'alibi' not tested in court.

We also do not know what happened' in the apartment. >@@(*&)

that's because the Portuguese  decided that there was no evidence(their words) that the mccanns had committed any crime

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #92 on: May 16, 2014, 12:45:06 PM »
that's because the Portuguese  decided that there was no evidence(their words) that the mccanns had committed any crime

Insufficient evidence davel.

It does not mean the mccanns didn't commit a crime.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #93 on: May 16, 2014, 12:53:23 PM »
Insufficient evidence davel.

It does not mean the mccanns didn't commit a crime.

check the archiving report...I think it says no evidence.....wrong again stephen

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #94 on: May 16, 2014, 12:57:27 PM »
check the archiving report...I think it says no evidence.....wrong again stephen

Insufficient means exactly that.

It does not mean the mccanns did not commit a crime.

 

Offline Mr Gray

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #95 on: May 16, 2014, 01:04:22 PM »
Insufficient means exactly that.

It does not mean the mccanns did not commit a crime.

where is your "insufficient "quote from

Offline Mr Gray

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #96 on: May 16, 2014, 01:10:14 PM »
the Portuguese archiving report does not mention insufficient evidence ..it says...


b) The archiving of the Process concerning Arguidos Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Marie Healy, because there are no indications of the practise of any crime under the dispositions of article 277 number 1 of the Penal Process Code.


NO INDICATIONS OF THE PRACTICE OF ANY CRIME....


That's pretty clear and was the opinion of the Portuguese judicial system...

Offline Mr Gray

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #97 on: May 16, 2014, 01:11:13 PM »
Not admissible in court? Are you absolutely 100% positive about that?

where have you been for the past seven years...even grime says that they have NO EVIDENTIAL VALUE

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #98 on: May 16, 2014, 01:16:16 PM »
Evidence is a pointer that might indicate guilt but is not conclusive.

Proof is an irrefutable indicator of guilt.

Sometimes, several pieces of evidence, none of them on their own conclusive, can collectively amount to proof.

The conviction of Peter Voisey is a classic example. 

There was no, smoking-gun proof of his guilt.  But several pieces of evidence.

He was on the sex-offenders' register and therefore capable of the crime.  That fact wasn't presented to the jury, but will no doubt have influenced the police and CPS in pressing charges.

His mobile phone placed him the "right" area at the time of the crime.  There was a weak DNA correlation, although DNA might have conclusively ruled him out. 

A footprint recovered from the wet bathroom floor precisely matched the pattern of a pair of shoes he owned.

The little girl was an excellent witness, although her evidence was never released.  Maybe she was able to describe details of the interior of his car, or items of clothing he possessed (we can only guess).

There was an entry in his diary: it's finished.  He claimed that referred to Christmas (the crime was just after Christams).

None of that, on its own, would have been sufficient to convict.

Collectively, it all amounted to a compelling case.

For me, proof of the innocence of the McCanns is the absence of evidence that Kate and Gerry were simultaneously absent from the restaurant at any point between their joint arrival and Kate's alert at 2200.

Collaboration would have been required to pull off a crime such as that of which they were accused.

Without collaboration, mission impossible ...

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #99 on: May 16, 2014, 01:35:12 PM »
The case was archived pending better evidence.
The archiving dispatch appears to have said this.
It seems they were not even prepared to say what crime if any had been committed. Clearly they had no strong evidence of abduction or they would have said so.

<<<<SNIP>>>>

- Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively – the most dramatic – to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.
 
But therefore we do not possess any minimally solid and rigorous foundation in order to be able to state, with the safety that is requested, which was or were the exact and precise crime(s) that was or were practised on the person of the minor Madeleine McCann – apart from the supposed but dismissed crime of exposure or abandonment – or to hold anyone responsible over its authorship.
<<<SNIP>>>

"With regard to other possible crimes, whilst we cannot dismiss the possibility of a killing, given the high degree of probability, there is no evidence for this in the case records.
The non-involvement of Madeleine's parents in any criminally significant action is apparent from the fact that they were not in the apartment at the time of her disappearance, their normal behaviour up to that moment and afterwards, as witnessed by the statements of the witnesses, the analysis of the telephone communications and the conclusions of the experts reports…
None of the indications which led to their being made suspects was substantiated later; there was no proof of them having notified the media before the police, the laboratory did not confirm the traces found by the dogs, and the initial e-mail indications transcribed above later turned out to be harmless
…. Therefore having considered the foregoing, I order:
… b) Filing of the papers concerning the suspects Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Marie Healy, as there is no evidence that they committed any crime defined by Article 277.1 of the Code of Criminal Procedure".

Offline Mr Gray

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #100 on: May 16, 2014, 01:48:51 PM »
The case was archived pending better evidence.
The archiving dispatch appears to have said this.

It seems they were not even prepared to say what crime if any had been committed. Clearly they had no strong evidence of abduction or they would have said so.

<<<<SNIP>>>>

- Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively – the most dramatic – to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.
 
But therefore we do not possess any minimally solid and rigorous foundation in order to be able to state, with the safety that is requested, which was or were the exact and precise crime(s) that was or were practised on the person of the minor Madeleine McCann – apart from the supposed but dismissed crime of exposure or abandonment – or to hold anyone responsible over its authorship.
<<<SNIP>>>

This is totally untrue as ferryman points out...the archiving report says no evidence against the mccanns...

unfortunately posters still believe untruths which in my mind accounts for those who disbelieve the mccanns

Offline John

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #101 on: May 16, 2014, 02:02:50 PM »
the Portuguese archiving report does not mention insufficient evidence ..it says...


b) The archiving of the Process concerning Arguidos Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Marie Healy, because there are no indications of the practise of any crime under the dispositions of article 277 number 1 of the Penal Process Code.


NO INDICATIONS OF THE PRACTICE OF ANY CRIME....


That's pretty clear and was the opinion of the Portuguese judicial system...

That is indeed very clear but saying that there is no indications of the practise of any crime doesn't mean there aren't any as yet undiscovered.

Patb made a good point earlier when he mentioned admissible evidence but this thread does not limit itself to just admissible evidence.  Evidence and even admissible evidence can be a twin edged sword as I unfortunately found out to my own cost.

Another point worth clarifying is that the dog handler (the expert) can give evidence in court.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 02:14:37 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Brietta

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #102 on: May 16, 2014, 02:12:36 PM »
This is totally untrue as ferryman points out...the archiving report says no evidence against the mccanns...

unfortunately posters still believe untruths which in my mind accounts for those who disbelieve the mccanns

I think there is a total disregard for the 'presumption of innocence' in Madeleine McCann's case.  I cannot comprehend why people continue to accuse her parents of a heinous crime when there has never been any suggestion there is evidence to charge them.

For example, should there be an organised internet campaign against the man released from police custody in the Claudia Lawrence case ... I imagine the legal repercussions would be immediate.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline John

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #103 on: May 16, 2014, 02:20:24 PM »
I agree Brietta, Chris Jeffries was treated appallingly by Sky News and others after the murder of Joanne Yeates and rightly successfully sued many of them for defamation. Now they are doing the same with Michael Snelling plastering his photo everywhere.

The presumption of innocence doesn't seem to apply to the British press regardless of Leveson.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 02:26:17 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline patb

Re: So what is the evidence for abduction?
« Reply #104 on: May 16, 2014, 02:50:23 PM »
still lots of confusion re the legal terms being used. As I mentioned before, evidence proves something. If it proves something relavant, it forms part of the case, if it proves something not relevant, then its not part of the case. If it does not meet required standards, it cant be introduced within the legal environment, if it doesn't prove anything, then it's either not evidence in the first place or subject to cross examination which then undermines it (this would normally be expert matter of opinion rather than fact).  One piece of evidence, that is accepted by the judge or jury proves a fact. In most occasions, one piece of evidence does not prove guilt as it normally takes a set of proven facts to turn a theory (ie the allegation) into something that the court accepts as proven reality (beyond reasonable doubt), sometimes there is so much evidence that even if some is excluded through procedure or undermined by the defence, there is still enough evidence to prove the case.  there seems to be confusion between evidence proving a fact and evidence proving guilt. So much emotion on these threads that its hard to keep to cold, rational legal concepts.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 02:54:15 PM by patb »