So what is the evidence for abduction?

[xtina]

You're being too polite Xtina.

 

[Benice]

get your facts right too........the mccs new maddie had been abducted straight away......yet the let 20 odd people trample round the apartment ...method in there madness or what ...or .are they completely incompetent ....

Another poster who thinks that terrified parents who are suddenly confronted with the nightmare that their child has been abducted should immediately morph into policemen.   The whole idea is ridiculous IMO.  The policemen who did turn up didn't behave like policemen - but no doubt you find nothing wrong with that.

[mercury]

Another poster who thinks that terrified parents who are suddenly confronted with the nightmare that their child has been abducted should immediately morph into policemen.   The whole idea is ridiculous IMO.  The policemen who did turn up didn't behave like policemen - but no doubt you find nothing wrong with that.

oh really? How didnt they behave then? In a trampled and compromised apartment, what exactly dd they do wrong

[Brietta]

Another poster who thinks that terrified parents who are suddenly confronted with the nightmare that their child has been abducted should immediately morph into policemen.   The whole idea is ridiculous IMO.  The policemen who did turn up didn't behave like policemen - but no doubt you find nothing wrong with that.

It is the responsibility of the police to organise and preserve a crime scene ... then why pass over the opportunity to get another dig in at the parents of a missing child.  In my opinion a very weird pastime indeed.
 

[mercury]

It is the responsibility of the police to organise and preserve a crime scene ... then why pass over the opportunity to get another dig in at the parents of a missing child.  In my opinion a very weird pastime indeed.

The police can only preserve a crime scene once they get there....and if its been destroyed before they do, well,no point blaming them is there,blame lies elsewhere

[Benice]

oh really? How didnt they behave then? In a trampled and compromised apartment, what exactly dd they do wrong

They did not immediately cordon off the scene or ask people to leave. 

5A did not become a crime scene until if was absolutely certain that Madeleine was not there.     There is no way that could  be established without thoroughly searching the place first - which is what happened before the GNR arrived.   The first thing one of the GNR officers did when he arrived at 11.00p.m. was to search the whole place.

[mercury]

They did not immediately cordon off the scene or ask people to leave. 

5A did not become a crime scene until if was absolutely certain that Madeleine was not there.     There is no way that could  be established without thoroughly searching the place first - which is what happened.     The first thing one of the GNR officers did when he arrived at 11.00p.m. was to search the whole place.

As i said a contaminated crime scene before police were called or arrived ergo benice you have noargument

[pathfinder73]

As i said a contaminated crime scene before police were called or arrived ergo benice you have noargument

And the most important part of the crime scene was tampered with before the police arrived. That red flag is doing some whooshing   

[Anna]

They did not immediately cordon off the scene or ask people to leave. 

5A did not become a crime scene until if was absolutely certain that Madeleine was not there.     There is no way that could  be established without thoroughly searching the place first - which is what happened before the GNR arrived.   The first thing one of the GNR officers did when he arrived at 11.00p.m. was to search the whole place.

At that moment one of the GNR officers told the witness that they had already searched for the girl in the wardrobes and other places in the apartment without having taken any care as to leaving their own traces or for destroying or adulterating any traces that might be of interest to the investigation.

After the arrival of the witness and his colleague Vitor Martins the scene was isolated and the inspection began, namely the collection of statements and inspection of the scene, the respective reports that were subsequently attached to the process documents.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_BARREIRAS.htm


Also another interesting thread (was the crime scene contaminated)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1707.msg41869#msg41869

[Brietta]

And the most important part of the crime scene was tampered with before the police arrived. That red flag is doing some whooshing   

In his book Mr Amaral asserts "An inspector is sent to the scene immediately to establish the initial facts. A forensic expert assigned to security of the premises will join him. All precautions are taken to preserve possible clues and elements of evidence."

But that is not what actually had happened.


Subject: Despatch of Report on the Searches carried out in P da L  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

4. The commander of the Lagos post, Sargeant Antonio Henrique Conceicao Duarte immediately left for the site the girl had disappeared from, telling the officers to preserve the apartment, and arrived at 23.50 at the OC, where he was informed about the situation together with the patrol officers and where he saw that searches had already taken place, carried out by the girl’s father and locals, but without any results.


This is confirmed in Sgt Duarte's witness statement  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_DUARTE.htm

The witness, from the description and supposed seriousness of the facts related, ordered the immediate preservation of the scene, and said he would go to the site and communicate the facts to the PJ (this was done from the Post, he does not remember which officer did this but thinks it was Officer Patricio).

Sgt Duarte arrived at the Ocean Club at 23.50 and when PJ Deputy Specialist João Franciso Páscoa Luis Trigo Barreiras arrived 00.50 the crime scene was still unsecured despite the sergeant who had given the order to secure it being in attendance for an hour.


When they arrived at the scene, which they immediately identified due to the presence of GNR officers, as well as quite a lot of people who were walking around the street searching for the child, they immediately went to the apartment in question, where they found several people, including some GNR officers, as well as the head of the Lagos GNR station. He states that the people inside the apartment and close to it, entered and left the building and circulated in the whole apartment, completely freely, in other words, without there being any restriction or care in preserving the scene.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_BARREIRAS.htm

I have written the above precis from the full account of the lack of professionalism in securing the crime scene from here https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/preserving-that-crime-scene/ which goes on to discuss the further contamination of the scene while under police control.
Including a link to the Daily Mail article claiming that the cleaners were allowed to take Madeleine's bedding to the laundry.

To say the crime scene was mismanaged is an understatement considering the destroyed forensic evidence which could have shown the presence of an intruder had it survived.

To blame Madeleine McCann's parents for that situation is so far off the mark it is absurd.

[mercury]

In his book Mr Amaral asserts "An inspector is sent to the scene immediately to establish the initial facts. A forensic expert assigned to security of the premises will join him. All precautions are taken to preserve possible clues and elements of evidence."

But that is not what actually had happened.


Subject: Despatch of Report on the Searches carried out in P da L  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

4. The commander of the Lagos post, Sargeant Antonio Henrique Conceicao Duarte immediately left for the site the girl had disappeared from, telling the officers to preserve the apartment, and arrived at 23.50 at the OC, where he was informed about the situation together with the patrol officers and where he saw that searches had already taken place, carried out by the girl’s father and locals, but without any results.


This is confirmed in Sgt Duarte's witness statement  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_DUARTE.htm

The witness, from the description and supposed seriousness of the facts related, ordered the immediate preservation of the scene, and said he would go to the site and communicate the facts to the PJ (this was done from the Post, he does not remember which officer did this but thinks it was Officer Patricio).

Sgt Duarte arrived at the Ocean Club at 23.50 and when PJ Deputy Specialist João Franciso Páscoa Luis Trigo Barreiras arrived 00.50 the crime scene was still unsecured despite the sergeant who had given the order to secure it being in attendance for an hour.


When they arrived at the scene, which they immediately identified due to the presence of GNR officers, as well as quite a lot of people who were walking around the street searching for the child, they immediately went to the apartment in question, where they found several people, including some GNR officers, as well as the head of the Lagos GNR station. He states that the people inside the apartment and close to it, entered and left the building and circulated in the whole apartment, completely freely, in other words, without there being any restriction or care in preserving the scene.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_BARREIRAS.htm

I have written the above precis from the full account of the lack of professionalism in securing the crime scene from here https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/preserving-that-crime-scene/ which goes on to discuss the further contamination of the scene while under police control.
Including a link to the Daily Mail article claiming that the cleaners were allowed to take Madeleine's bedding to the laundry.

To say the crime scene was mismanaged is an understatement considering the destroyed forensic evidence which could have shown the presence of an intruder had it survived.

To blame Madeleine McCann's parents for that situation is so far off the mark it is absurd.

Nope its correct, the Mccanns let in all and sundry in before the police were even called. Thus DESTROYING evidence.....FACT and said FACT was stated by the countrys state prosecutor
Your "snips" and machinations mean nothing much,,especially since they arebiased ergo totally worthless

[sadie]

Nope its correct, the Mccanns let in all and sundry in before the police were even called. Thus DESTROYING evidence.....FACT and said FACT was stated by the countrys state prosecutor
Your "snips" and machinations mean nothing much,,especially since they arebiased ergo totally worthless

The Mccanns hoped that they were searching for a hiding or walked off little girl. 

Everyone searched .... as little doubt, you and your friends would do if your child had gone missing.

Kate had to be with the twins. 
Also in case Madeleine returned of her own violition. 

Also for the police.  They were called in the first 5 - 10 minutes as far as the Tapas group were concerned.    That is when Matt ran down to reception to ask them to call the police BUT as we all know, there was a huge delay before they arrived

It is natural that Kate would have others with her to support her in her distress.



Such a pity that when they eventually arrived. the police [GNR] did not secure the apartment, but even left their own evidence behind.


So mercury, you criticise the parents of a missing child for not securing the apartment, but it is OK that the GNR did NOT?   They are the professionals with training and experience; the Mccanns were just totally distraught parents and amateurs

[Benice]

As i said a contaminated crime scene before police were called or arrived ergo benice you have noargument

So IYO it was the  McCanns who failed in their duty to preserve the crime scene and cordon it off?   IMO that expectation of distraught parents is more than a tad unrealistic.

However, I'm glad to see elsewhere that you agree that evidence of an intruder(s)  which may have existed -  was destroyed and therefore to claim there was no evidence of an abduction is incorrect.    Just because no evidence was found doesn't mean it never existed.   

 

[stephen25000]

So IYO it was the  McCanns who failed in their duty to preserve the crime scene and cordon it off?   IMO that expectation of distraught parents is more than a tad unrealistic.

However, I'm glad to see elsewhere that you agree that evidence of an intruder(s)  which may have existed -  was destroyed and therefore to claim there was no evidence of an abduction is incorrect.    Just because no evidence was found doesn't mean it never existed.

If the mccanns were 'looking' for a child that run off and 'searched', why did they cry abduction ?

Why did they also search and mess up the apartment ?

[Benice]

If the mccanns were 'looking' for a child that run off and 'searched', why did they cry abduction ?

Why did they also search and mess up the apartment ?

[/b]

If you can't work out for yourself why they searched the apartment - there is no point in trying to explain it to you.

All you prove IMO is that you have no ability to put yourself in someone's else's shoes.