Jeremy Bamber - Debunking Mike Tesko's strange theories

[abs]

Totally agree   --  some speculation is infinitely more plausible than others!

I don't think Sheila's fingerprints were somehow 'lost',I don't think they were there in the first place

There was one. In any case that is not strange, she was close to the rifle.

[Dillon]

Sheila was not strongly built. My wife always says that she did not have muscles in her arms. " Those were the days before people went to gyms . " Perhaps a little bit of an exageration but clearly a beautiful but slightly built woman.
She was also regarded as poorly coordinated and had not managed to learn to drive, as far as I know,  in an age when most people, particularly in rural environments did.  Sheila disliked guns and it is a myth to think that people brought up on farms naturally became competent or even familiar with handling weapons. As a farmer's daughter, my wife hasn't a clue how to shoot either. Let alone the forensic evidence, in my opinion it really does defy belief to think that Sheila could have shot her family and very brutally battered her tall, strong father in the way consistent with the very severe injuries which he sustained.  She lacked the strength, coordination and competence to have been responsible.

[starryian]

For me,Dillon's earlier post re Sheila's mental health issues seems to put to bed all the fantastical tales of her rampaging psychosis,her tardive dyskensia,gurning,strength of an ox/10 men,et al as peddled by the pro-bamber bods.I really think that those who are so quick on there to purport to be so deeply traumatised by the so called 'vile posts' on here should stop and have a long think about the hideous,unsubstantiated claims they have made about a vulnerable woman,who was murdered and whose children were murdered

on another issue  --  I have always wondered why,if Sheila beat Neville into submission in the kitchen with the wooden handle of the gun,which she could only have done by firmly gripping the barrell end,why there were no finger prints on this part of the gun,as well as the trigger from when she shot everybody?Were gloves found that Sheila had been wearing.Surely the lack of finger prints from S is inexplicable,whereas easily explained in JB's case -- he was wearing gloves

As far as I remember, there was one fingerprint from Jeremy and one from Sheila - and none else??? I think the firearm had been shifted around so much by police officers that the fingerfrint evidence was destroyed. Like so much else in this case.

That was all that was found on the gun. It is highly probable that the gun was wiped clean by Bamber. Julie Mugford had stated that Bamber was really worried about fingerprints when he was 'hypothesising' about killing his family some weeks before the murders. I am almost positive that Bamber wiped the prints from the gun. He tried to put Sheila's prints on it by dabbing her hand against the gun. Therefore it is hardly surprising that none of Nevil's were found, despite the wound to the 'web' between his forefinger and thumb of his right hand which indicted that something had been pulled from his grasp.
In short, the rifle was handled by Nevil, Sheila, Bamber and possible others and the police could only find two partial prints? No way. The rifle had been wiped clean. The only person to have cause to wipe the gun clean of prints was Jeremy Bamber.

[cathythe sceptic]

Yes,I agree,it would have been very easy for JB to have got 1 print from S onto the trigger,and forgotten to put others at the other end,from when she had been using it to smash up Neville's head in her 'psychotic frenzy'

I seem to remember that the lack of Sheila's finger prints was something JB told JM that he had got wrong in his staging of the scene

[starryian]

Sheila was not strongly built. My wife always says that she did not have muscles in her arms. " Those were the days before people went to gyms . " Perhaps a little bit of an exageration but clearly a beautiful but slightly built woman.
She was also regarded as poorly coordinated and had not managed to learn to drive, as far as I know,  in an age when most people, particularly in rural environments did.  Sheila disliked guns and it is a myth to think that people brought up on farms naturally became competent or even familiar with handling weapons. As a farmer's daughter, my wife hasn't a clue how to shoot either. Let alone the forensic evidence, in my opinion it really does defy belief to think that Sheila could have shot her family and very brutally battered her tall, strong father in the way consistent with the very severe injuries which he sustained.  She lacked the strength, coordination and competence to have been responsible.

Excellent points Dillon. A very sound piece of reasoning. Yes Sheila by all accounts was a slightly built, waif-like lady who was extrememly uncoordinated, shaky and ungainly. Her aunt Ann Eaton described this aspect of Sheila's physical abilities thus; 'She couldnt put beans on toasts, without missing the toast'
Nevil however, weighed a good 14 stone plus and stood 6ft 4" tall. There is no way on this earth that Sheila Caffell could have physically overpowered him - injured or not, all he had to do to stop her was to fall on her. I am a little tired of the argument that Sheila possessed some kind of 'super human' strength' in her demented state. I have no doubt that in some cases this may be true, but there is not a shred of evidence to ever show that she was ever in this state at all! But Bamber apologists are quick enough to believe something this absurd without a shred of evidence.
For me, this kind of excuse or reason given by Bamber supporters is a cop-out in the extreme and it dodges the a very real issue. Sheila would have been physically unable to overcome Nevil in a fight. I have even heard an absurd suggestion that Sheila was young and Nevil was old! This totally misses the point. This man could throw hay bales that weigh as much as Sheila onto a tractor trailer without difficulty. This is the crux of the case. If Sheila did not beat her father into unconsciousness so viciously that the butt of the gun broke - and I strongly suspect - for obvious reasons - that she didn't, then there is only one other...The real murderer, psychopath and disseminator. Jeremy Bamber.

[cathythe sceptic]

absolutely agree Dillon

for me the 3 main implausibles which render all the myriard other implausibles obsolete are:

1) Sheila being able to brandish that rifle for more than 10 seconds without Neville wrestling out of her hands
2)An uninjured N phoning JB before getting the gun off S,or an injured N not mentioning to JB that he had already been shot ,or that the others had
3)If we do suspend utter disbelief and accept that N did make that call  - the window of opportunity for S to kill everybody,have a shower,wash her hair,maybe do her nails and put all her blood-stained clothes to soak is imo,totally iompossible  -- 40 mins at most,between the phone call and the arrival of the cops

[Keyboard Warrior]

Sheila was not strongly built. My wife always says that she did not have muscles in her arms. " Those were the days before people went to gyms . " Perhaps a little bit of an exageration but clearly a beautiful but slightly built woman.
She was also regarded as poorly coordinated and had not managed to learn to drive, as far as I know,  in an age when most people, particularly in rural environments did.  Sheila disliked guns and it is a myth to think that people brought up on farms naturally became competent or even familiar with handling weapons. As a farmer's daughter, my wife hasn't a clue how to shoot either. Let alone the forensic evidence, in my opinion it really does defy belief to think that Sheila could have shot her family and very brutally battered her tall, strong father in the way consistent with the very severe injuries which he sustained.  She lacked the strength, coordination and competence to have been responsible.

Excellent points Dillon. A very sound piece of reasoning. Yes Sheila by all accounts was a slightly built, waif-like lady who was extrememly uncoordinated, shaky and ungainly. Her aunt Ann Eaton described this aspect of Sheila's physical abilities thus; 'She couldnt put beans on toasts, without missing the toast'
Nevil however, weighed a good 14 stone plus and stood 6ft 4" tall. There is no way on this earth that Sheila Caffell could have physically overpowered him - injured or not, all he had to do to stop her was to fall on her. I am a little tired of the argument that Sheila possessed some kind of 'super human' strength' in her demented state. I have no doubt that in some cases this may be true, but there is not a shred of evidence to ever show that she was ever in this state at all! But Bamber apologists are quick enough to believe something this absurd without a shred of evidence.
For me, this kind of excuse or reason given by Bamber supporters is a cop-out in the extreme and it dodges the a very real issue. Sheila would have been physically unable to overcome Nevil in a fight. I have even heard an absurd suggestion that Sheila was young and Nevil was old! This totally misses the point. This man could throw hay bales that weigh as much as Sheila onto a tractor trailer without difficulty. This is the crux of the case. If Sheila did not beat her father into unconsciousness so viciously that the butt of the gun broke - and I strongly suspect - for obvious reasons - that she didn't, then there is only one other...The real murderer, psychopath and disseminator. Jeremy Bamber.

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 

[abs]

If Sheila was so coordinated, I take it that she had someone else apply her nail-polish; that takes some coordination, ask me, I know! 

[Dillon]

I doubt if I will ever be able to convince you ABS that Sheila could not have been the murderer. But you do present your case calmly and courteously in contrast to some of the posters on the other site and that is to be respected.
It is healthier in a forum anyway that we are not all singing from the same hymn sheet and discuss these issues without resorting to abuse. Actually, I have no experience of painting my fingernails so cannot comment on that as a valid indicator of coordination in relation to say operating machinery or loading and firing a rifle.   

[abs]

Nice post again, Dillon! Thank you. 

You have to be coordinated on both right and left hand - it does take some skill and coordination to apply nail-varnish

[cathythe sceptic]

Quite so,thats why i don't think she did any of that  - she was dead she wasn't doing her nails,sadly

[abs]

Quite so,thats why i don't think she did any of that  - she was dead she wasn't doing her nails,sadly

Well, people often say that Sheila had poor coordination and therefore could not have handled a rifle. I say it takes quite some coordination to apply nail-polish so well. Somebody else must have put it on her nails then.

[Dillon]

I have just had a snoop at Mr Teskowski's site and the poor man's blood pressure seems to be hitting the roof.
Chill ! Your use of the "F" word does you no favours. In fact they all seem to be getting very agitated in between discussing the merits and demerits of cheap and nasty sweet wine.

[cathythe sceptic]

If she hadn't had any need to re-do her nails as a result of her life and death fight with Neville - which imo did not take place - then perhaps they had been done earlier in the day  - may be by June? On the rare occasion that I bother with that sort of thing my daughter does mine and I do hers

btw,for what its worth,I agree with dillon,abs -- your posts are extremely courteous and you have agreat sense of humour,which I have enjoyed many times esp on the other forum,before you got banned.I have never posted  on there,but I used to read the very intelligent and quality debate there was on there last year  - before it all went so horribly wrong

[abs]

If she hadn't had any need to redo her nails as a result of her life and death fight with Neville - which IMO did not take place - then perhaps they had been done earlier in the day  - may be by June? On the rare occasion that I bother with that sort of thing my daughter does mine and I do hers

BTW,for what its worth,I agree with Dillon,abs -- your posts are extremely courteous and you have great sense of humour,which I have enjoyed many times esp on the other forum,before you got banned.I have never posted  on there,but I used to read the very intelligent and quality debate there was on there last year  - before it all went so horribly wrong

Thank you so much!
For the record, I was not banned, I left. And THEN I was banned - weeks later, but that's a whole ´nother strange little story!