So what's next in the libel trial saga?

[Angelo222]

On all the balance of evidence the first seems pretty clear-cut.

Almost always ...

Disagree.

[Carana]

I'm pretty sure Isabel would not have recommended a civil action if she felt the nature of the allegations would be a bar to success.

I still haven't worked out whether a penal suit was a possibility or not.

[Brietta]

They are on record stating that they lied when the need arises.  But don't we all?   

Then I think it is a bit rich to accuse someone of being a liar on the basis of a third party making a statement about how they may have felt in a given situation ... in fact I am not sure if it is even evidential ... who knows what anyone feels?

I wish that those who continually accuse the Drs McCann of lying would take a step back, consider the context and bear in mind that neither has a criminal conviction for perjury.

[Albertini]

Let's have a quote from you then that explicitly states the McCanns were not bothered about being made arguidos AFTER the event then, if that is indeed the hair-splitting point at hand.  Nothing you have so far quoted explicitly states that as far as I can see.

- The Judge asks can you explain why the arguido status didn't provoke many e-mails.

Libel trial witness for the Mccann's Michael Wright: It's very common and normal that the parents are the first suspects. He adds that being arguidos wasn't a preoccupation for the McCanns

Libel trial witness for the Mccann's Susan Hubbard: The McCanns didn't fear the arguido status because they knew they were innocent.

[Albertini]

Totally missing the point.  It was not the status of arguido that filled them with fear, but the prospect of being separated from their kids and banged up in a foreign jail.  Please don't pretend you can't tell the difference FGS!

No it is you missing the point.

Being given the status of Arguido made them think they would/could go to prison and be seperated from their kids and banged up in a foreign jail.

It was the act of making them Arguido which led to those thoughts, these then were their feelings after they were made Arguido.

But in the context of this discussion not one of their witnesses apparently noticed this fear of being separated from their kids or being banged up in a foreign jail.

And aren't these people supposed to know them, and testified as such in a court?

[Alfred R Jones]

Your first quote says that the status of arguido wasn't a preoccupation of the McCanns - what evidence do you have that it was a preoccupation of theirs?  Does preoccupation = fear in your view?

Your second quote explicitly states that they did not fear the arguido status - you have been unable to provide any quote from the McCanns saying that they were afraid of being arguidos. 

Try again.

[Alfred R Jones]

No it is you missing the point.

Being given the status of Arguido made them think they would/could go to prison and be seperated from their kids and banged up in a foreign jail.

It was the act of making them Arguido which led to those thoughts, these then were their feelings after they were made Arguido.

But in the context of this discussion not one of their witnesses apparently noticed this fear of being separated from their kids or being banged up in a foreign jail.

And aren't these people supposed to know them, and testified as such in a court?

No, the belief Gerry and his solicitor had that they were about to be charged, possibly with murder, is what scared them, not the status of arguido itself. 

[Albertini]

No, the belief Gerry and his solicitor had that they were about to be charged, possibly with murder, is what scared them, not the status of arguido itself.

But they were Arguidos at that point weren't they?

[stephen25000]

No, the belief Gerry and his solicitor had that they were about to be charged, possibly with murder, is what scared them, not the status of arguido itself.

Why should they have been afraid of a murder charge ?

The PJ believed they had covered up an accidental death.

[Anna]

Erm... in UK law, yes, but this is not necessarily the case in Portuguese law.

I haven't found many civil defamation cases in Portugal (although perhaps I simply haven't found them).

Many seem to be of the private penal variety (including an investigation into one against a journalist describing a former high official in the PT government as a "clown").

In Portugal, being described as a clown is defamatory (in the penal code) if the person in question is, or was, a professional of repute.

On the other hand, being accused of criminal acts in a civil case doesn't appear to be that clear-cut.

This is interesting as they cannot repair the damage........................................................
Portugal Law and practice

Excerpts:-

7.1 Rules relating to damages

The general rule is that the party obliged to compensate for damages must restore the situation to that which would have existed if the event that led to the damage had not occurred (Cf. Article 562 of the CC). Whenever this is not possible, the indemnity should be calculated in terms of monetary value (Cf. Article 566 of the CC).

[Alfred R Jones]

But they were Arguidos at that point weren't they?

Yes they were but it wasn't being arguidos that scared them so much, it was the prospect of being charged and incarcerated for weeks, or months pre-trial with no access to their children or the possibility of properly preparing their defence that scared them.   It was their belief that such an eventuality was imminent hence the desire to flee - if it wasn't this imminent threat and was simply the threat of being an arguido that scared them, why did they not entertain thoughts of doing a "midnight flit" days earlier when they strongly suspected they were about to be made arguidos?

[Carana]

Why should they have been afraid of a murder charge ?

The PJ believed they had covered up an accidental death.

I don't know about you, but if I had been in a similar situation and had found out about the Cipriano case and what happened to them despite the lack of any plausible evidence, together with a very similar blackwashing, PJ leaking situation, I would have had serious concerns about whether it was wise to stay or to get the hell out with the twins.

[Albertini]

Yes they were but it wasn't being arguidos that scared them so much, it was the prospect of being charged and incarcerated for weeks, or months pre-trial with no access to their children or the possibility of properly preparing their defence that scared them.   It was their belief that such an eventuality was imminent hence the desire to flee - if it wasn't this imminent threat and was simply the threat of being an arguido that scared them, why did they not entertain thoughts of doing a "midnight flit" days earlier when they strongly suspected they were about to be made arguidos?

These thoughts which came about according to Kate's book, after they'd left the police station having been made Arguidos.

So that was the effect of being made Arguidos, wasn't it?

Dear Lord, you pedantry and desperate attempts to twist the situation to try and make it seem its not what it so clearly is, is becoming really tiresome.

[Mr Gray]

These thoughts which came about according to Kate's book, after they'd left the police station having been made Arguidos.

So that was the effect of being made Arguidos, wasn't it?

Dear Lord, you pedantry and desperate attempts to twist the situation to try and make it seem its not what it so clearly is, is becoming really tiresome.

Tiresome because you don't understand...


In a similar situation If I thought that the police were investigating me as a matter of routine...simply because I was the parent...I would not be at all worried. However, if I felt the police were investigating because they thought I was guilty...that would be very worrying. Can you really not see the difference

[Alfred R Jones]

How long were the McCanns arguidos?  Were they in a state of constant fear for the entire duration does anyone know?