Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.

[pegasus]

...in similar apartments I have stayed in the doors have been quite heavy

The sliding door at 5A slid very easily.
Would you like to see a video demonstration of the sliding door at 5A?
I have one here, if you wish?

[sadie]

Welcome back sadie. I have missed your own particular brand of nonsense   

Cheers Faith,  You rejoining the abusive set?  Pity

[pegasus]

Watch the first video on this page: fast forward to 2 minutes 59 seconds - the sliding door slides open easily
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8zemp_a-verdade-da-mentira-maddie-mccann_news

[sadie]

(2nd May) "We borrowed a double buggy from Mark Warner". (Source: The book "Madeleine").

Thank you Pagasus.  I knew that they had had a bad experience trying to manage 3 tired little ones when they had had to walk to the Millenium restaurant.  So they had borrowed a double buggy on the 2nd. but had already, I believe, booked into The Tapas Restaurant for all the week?  Please correct me if I am wrong.

All  4 apartments had kitchens

We know that, but before coming out, they had decided on a non self catering holiday, at least for the evening meal.  Kate was a working Mum and needed the break, no doubt.  They were also with friends and chose a holiday that they could eat together, with catered meals of decent (by the sounds of things) meals.  Many couples do that, if they can afford it.

They were unaware of the limited child listening services when they booked.  They expected it to be like other MW places.

But they more than equalled most hotel listening services by actually going into the apartment and seeing the children at regular intervals .... not just listening on a monitor, or at a window, or door.

After booking, a 10% discount was requested, and a retrospective discount was given, I already posted proof.  The professional MW listening service was superior, with checking interval of 15 minutes, as proven by statements. .

They wanted and at the time of booking expected the MW listening service, but this MW holiday place was different to others, there was No listening service.   I am glad they got the discount.  Nothing wrong with that.

Not relevant really that the MW service was normally every 15 minutes, cos there wasn't one here.  The norm at hotels and holiday camps used to be every 30 minutes (theoretically anyway). 

The Mccanns operated a superior system to most hotels and Holiday camps.  They actually went into the apartment, listened and LOOKED, visually checked.


Also many people at hotels and holiday camps are nowhere near, or within sight of, their room/apartment.  The Mccann friends were close and could actually see the Mccann apartment at only 50 metres away. 

The Mccanns believed the front was locked.  A key was needed to open the door and the window was closed, shuttered and appeared locked also. 

The Patio window door was the only unlocked door and the group had good sight of the patio space and window.  It was well illuminated and close.  Amaral, himself, said that no intruder would dare go in via that door as it was overlooked by the Tapas group in the restaurant only 50 metres away.

They would feel very safe.

Safety sticker on lounge sliding door cautioned guests to never allow child on balcony unsupervised.

They probably never did.  They probably never expected any of the children to stir.  Kids on holiday, busy all day long in the sun etc are usually very tired by bedtime .... and usually sleep thru, even if that is not the norm at home.  That was my experience anyhow.

We had a big problem with my little boys sleeping habits.  He was waking all thru the night at home, but slept like a log on holiday at the seaside.  Holidays were bliss thru that alone.

[pegasus]

Also this video at about 40 seconds shows the sliding door opens easily

[sadie]

Yes I agree the child could have yelled from the balcony and possibly be heard at the tapas table.
Yes I agree the tapas table can be seen from the balcony, by a person of adult height (I think a small child would not be able to see however this is easily solved for example by simply standing on a plastic chair)

But your suggestions would be in direct contravention of this very clear safety sticker
(Photo is of a nearby apartment, exact same sticker was in 5A, definitely)

(Photo by Jeanne D'Arc)

You seem to be stating that the child could easily have gone onto the balcony to see and shout at the tapas table?
The sticker says "Supervise your children at all times when on the balcony"
From what distance would this important supervision have been in your scenario?

Pegasus

IF Madeleine were able to to open the patio door, then I am sorry , but you are wrong about her NOT being able to see the Tapas friends from the balcony.  No need for a plastic chair.  These railings were immediately outside the patio windows.  She had a clear view thru the railings ...  and the first thing that she would have noticed as she came out was the Tapas restaurant. 

It was a lighted place with movement in a dark area.   Her eyes would have gone straight to it ... and she would have seen her parents and friends.  No doubt have heard Gerry as well.  As you correctly surmise they could have heard her too, had she yelled



This photograph illustrates it very well .  The Tapas restaurant is the building with giant windows immediately behind the pool.  Madeleines Mum and Dad were in the RH window (westerly window)


http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/notwviewfrompatio.jpg


At the time of the abduction, the bushes had JUST been cut back, so the view would have been much greater.

[pegasus]

... there was No listening service.   I am glad they got the discount. ...

The discount was nothing to do with listening service. At some date after booking, the group noticed that a 10% discount was at this later date being offered. So one of the group emailed and asked for that 10% discount retrospectivly. Nothing to do with listening service.

Not relevant really that the MW service was normally every 15 minutes

Oh yes it is very relevant, because several members of the group specifically state that the MW interval is 15 minutes and specifically claim they were modelling the MW system. But they replaced MW's 15 minute checking interval with their own longer checking interval, which obviously is less good - it increases the time a child might cry before help coming, from 14 minutes, to 29 minutes, which I suggest politely is the exact opposite of an improvement.

The norm at hotels and holiday camps used to be every 30 minutes (theoretically anyway). 

If so provide any source which states a listening service anywhere with 30 minute intervals? I think it would be madness for a company to have such a long checking interval

[pegasus]

...

That photo is taken at eye level of  a tall adult.

If the photographer had crouched down and taken a second photo, at the eye level of a 3-year old, the shrubbery with yellow flowers just beyond the alleyway wall would block the view of the tapas table.

For a 3 year old to get that excellent view you posted, even standing on a plastic chair would not be enough.

I am just looking at it from a child's point of view, literally.
 

[sadie]

The discount was nothing to do with listening service. At some date after booking, the group noticed that a 10% discount was at this later date being offered. So one of the group emailed and asked for that 10% discount retrospectivly. Nothing to do with listening service.

Ah, thank you.  So one of the group emailed.  Not necessarily The Mccanns.  I am glad who ever emailed got the discount anyway

Oh yes it is very relevant, because several members of the group specifically state that the MW interval is 15 minutes and specifically claim they were modelling thethe MW system. But they replaced MW's 15 minute checking interval with their own longer checking interval, which obviously is less good - it increases the time a child might cry before help coming, from 14 minutes, to 29 minutes, which I suggest politely is the exact opposite of an improvement.

I never had reason to use a hotel listening service, my children were late to bed-ders.  But am I right that the hotel will phone clients on their mobiles to tell them if there is any crying?  So if the clients [parents] are eating out, they are not necessarily close by?

If that is the case, then what the Tapas group did is vastly better than what MW listening service provided for.

Also, given knowledge about a listening device in use, and a quick knock out drug, the abduction using soft shoes, could have been achieved with ease.  A listener on a listening device would not necessarily hear a thing.  Most especially if it was only listened to once every 15 minutes.

Please do not forget that the Tapas Group were overlooking the only open entrance to 5A from only 50 metres

And Amaral confirmed that no intruder would dare go into 5A by the only unlocked [and lit] entrance.

If so provide any source which states a listening service anywhere with 30 minute intervals? I think it would be madness for a company to have such a long checking interval.

I think that you know the answer to that!

Since Madeleine was abducted no hotels at all, advertise a listening service.  It has frightened them.  But they did before Madeleine went. 

Little doubt with many, if you rang up and specifically asked, they would provide one.

[LagosBen]

I haven't read this whole thread   (soz)....

To me the holiday company SHOULD have issued guests with a warning regarding breakins and attempted breakins. If they had I doubt that anyone would  have used Baby monitors or checking systems.
 

Sorry but I haven't seen anyones opinion on this post......Hard as it is.... forget the McCanns.....but guests should have been warned.

I have stayed in resorts where Villa renters have been warned to lock all doors even when using their pools. 

[sadie]

That photo is taken at eye level of  a tall adult.

If the photographer had crouched down and taken a second photo, at the eye level of a 3-year old, the shrubbery with yellow flowers just beyond the alleyway wall would block the view of the tapas table.

For a 3 year old to get that excellent view you posted, even standing on a plastic chair would not be enough.

I am just looking at it from a child's point of view, literally.

All the shrubs are overgrown on that photo.
 
You are  very astute.  I accept what you are saying, but please do not forget that I have sat in that Tapas restaurant and looked hard at that patio window. 

I was further east than the Mccanns and in the LH window [of the photo I desplayed], but that would certainly not have affected the depth of my view.  I could see virtually all the window.  Some was cut off at the bottom, cos I was looking up, but not a lot.

The shrubs had just been cut at the time Madeleine vanished, as can be seen in contemporary photos.  Greenery grows amazingly fast in western PT, presumably because of the warm sun and a fair rainfall.

[sadie]

Sorry but I haven't seen anyones opinion on this post......Hard as it is.... forget the McCanns.....but guests should have been warned.

I have stayed in resorts where Villa renters have been warned to lock all doors even when using their pools.

So right Ben.  Of course they should have been warned

But then in the short term, OC would have lost revenue from the lack of diners.  And in the long term have lost future guests ... more revenue lost

Everything is about money these days.  sad, but that is a fact.

[LagosBen]

So right Ben.  Of course they should have been warned

But then in the short term, OC would have lost revenue from the lack of diners.  And in the long term have lost future guests ... more revenue lost

Everything is about money these days.  sad, but that is a fact.

And therein lies the problem Sadie...MW/OC seems like they didn't want to "put clients off".

[pegasus]

... I have sat in that Tapas restaurant and looked hard at that patio window ... 

Do you remember whether when you were looking from Tapas, could you see the top of the railing, in front of the of the lounge sliding door?
I ask because that is about the height of a 3 year old.

[sadie]

Do you remember whether when you were looking from Tapas, could you see the top of the railing, in front of the of the lounge sliding door?
I ask because that is about the height of a 3 year old.

Undoubtedly, I could.  At that stage, Madeleine had lived for almost 4 years btw.


Purleaze, it has been 4 years ago. 
FGS someone go and check that I am remembering correctly.  But I am sure that I could see most of the patio windows. 

There is a cheapo offer to OC on atm.  Luz is a very nice family or older person sort of place.   Purleaze someone go and check.

Tbh, Peagasus what they could, or could not see, depends on the growth of the bushes and hedge.  The growth of greenery in western PT is amazingly fast.

Certainly the shrubs in 5A garden in early May 2007 had JUST been cut back.  JUST cut right back.