Mark Warner Holidays and Ocean Club Resorts had a duty of care towards their guests.

[faithlilly]

Undoubtedly, I could.  At that stage, Madeleine had lived for almost 4 years btw.


Purleaze, it has been 4 years ago. 
FGS someone go and check that I am remembering correctly.  But I am sure that I could see most of the patio windows. 

There is a cheapo offer to OC on atm.  Luz is a very nice family or older person sort of place.   Purleaze someone go and check.

Tbh, Peagasus what they could, or could not see, depends on the growth of the bushes and hedge.  The growth of greenery in western PT is amazingly fast.

Certainly the shrubs in 5A garden in early May 2007 had JUST been cut back.  JUST cut right back.

Sadie you say the shrubs had been just cut back in May 2007 but give no evidence for that. Do you have any ?

[sadie]

Sadie you say the shrubs had been just cut back in May 2007 but give no evidence for that. Do you have any ?

Yep, there is a contemporary photograph, but I aint looking for it at this time of night.  Soz

Am tired.  Was up until after 6am a couple of nights ago, putting a report in, cos of the fiasco on here.  Will take me a few days to catch up with my sleep



Maybe tomorrow if you will remind me please, or next time I am here.

[faithlilly]

Yep, there is a contemporary photograph, but I aint looking for it at this time of night.  Soz

Am tired.  Was up until after 6am a couple of nights ago, putting a report in, cos of the fiasco on here.  Will take me a few days to catch up with my sleep



Maybe tomorrow if you will remind me please, or next time I am here.

Fair enough sadie.

[pegasus]

Sadie you say the shrubs had been just cut back in May 2007 but give no evidence for that. Do you have any ?

There is a reference to gardeners working on the gardens of block 5 in this link, although it's unclear whether the date was before, or after the 3rd.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id219.html

[faithlilly]

There is a reference to gardeners working on the gardens of block 5 in this link, although it's unclear whether the date was before, or after the 3rd.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id219.html

Thank you Pegasus.

There is an interview with an Algarve based reporter which I'm sure I saw a video of on this forum. He shows some photographs of the back of the apartment taken on the 4th of May and I'm sure they show that the foliage was quite high and dense at the time and did indeed shield most of the patio entrance of 5a from being viewed from the tapas bar. Does anyone remember it ?

[pegasus]

Here is the definitive photo for exact sizes of shrubs and trees and the view of tapas table from balcony.
It is definitive because it was taken by PJ on the actual night of the "disappearance"
Please note this photo was taken several hours after, when the full moon had risen fairly high in the sky.
Earlier, at 10pm, it would I think have been darker than the photo shows.
And remember this photo was taken from adult eye-level - the view from small child eye-level would be less.
Lower photo ("Foto 16") here

[Freya]

Well here is another view of Mark Warner Holidays.


'

1.Mark Warner provided a free evening creche -

the McCanns chose not to use it.

2.Mark Warner provided a babysitting service by fully qualified staff at a nominal fee -

 the McCann's chose not to use it

3.Mark Warner provided a takeaway service from the tapas restaurant -

 the McCann's chose not to use it.

4.Mark warner provided self-catering accomodation for those preferring to stay home and cater for themselves -

the McCann's chose not to use it.

5.Mark Warner provided accommodation which had locks to all doors and windows -

 the McCann's chose to leave a door unlocked and never checked the windows.

6.Mark Warner did not provide a 'listening service' as they felt the layout of the resort made this an unsafe and unsuitable option -

 the McCann's not only decided to operate their own version, they also asked for a discount because of it.

7.The McCann's blamed Mark Warner for supposedly leaving a book containing their request for a table every night to facilitate the neglect of their children at a reception desk where it might be read by others -

yet freely informed complete strangers that they had left their children home alone while they were out dining.

8.The McCann supporters say Mark Warner should have warned them about attacks on other children -

 yet most of these attacks were not reported at the time and were not in PdL. Regardless, the McCanns had decided to operate their own, unsafe listening system before they even left the UK and without ascertaining whether the area was safe, or knowing the location of their accommodation.

9.Mark Warner only made one mistake - failing to immediately alert social services when they became aware of what the McCanns were doing. However, they could hardly be expected to know the McCanns were leaving a door open. They provided the McCanns and their hangers-on with thousands of pounds of free accommodation and thousands of pounds of free childcare. They engaged expert help for them and immediately flew out counsellors to work with the couple. '

Comments welcome.

Just to point out, it wasn't Mark Warners book about burglaries...it was OCean Clubs...an entirely different company.

[Freya]

perhaps its not as simple as posters think....in 50 years of butlins style baby listening..not one serious incident reported...

in 50 years how many children have been seriously assaulted and even died in registered nurseries

Yes, good points. I am pretty sure they didn't use a baby sitter for a very simple reason...they have to have more than one nanny in the crèches during the day. The fronts of the buildings have large glass windows so passers by can see what is going on. Now, the nannys have all been checked and are fantastic, but......a stranger then in a closed room looking after children....Has no one stopped to think about that yet?

[Freya]

absolutely..

Finally, someone can put themselves in a parents shoes

[Freya]

Did the company have a duty of care to install an outside play area next to Tapas restaurant?
Should they have installed a nice area of grass next to the restaurant so if kids got bored during a family meal, one of the adults could have simply got up from the table mid-cource and supervised the kids playing on the grass next to the restaurant?

Pity they didn't install any lighting. Might be a tad dangerous

[Freya]

Yes I agree the child could have yelled from the balcony and possibly be heard at the tapas table.
Yes I agree the tapas table can be seen from the balcony, by a person of adult height (I think a small child would not be able to see however this is easily solved for example by simply standing on a plastic chair)

But your suggestions would be in direct contravention of this very clear safety sticker
(Photo is of a nearby apartment, exact same sticker was in 5A, definitely)

(Photo by Jeanne D'Arc)

You seem to be stating that the child could easily have gone onto the balcony to see and shout at the tapas table?
The sticker says "Supervise your children at all times when on the balcony"
From what distance would this important supervision have been in your scenario?

Id love to see proof that this sticker was in all apartments. It certainly was NOT in the apartment we stayed in. You see some of the apartments are privately owned, some owned by Ocean Club. Ocean club will rent out apartments to MW on behalf of some owners...while other apartments are rented out directly from owner to customer. Therefore you cannot state that all apartments had these stickers. They didnt

[Freya]

Here is the definitive photo for exact sizes of shrubs and trees and the view of tapas table from balcony.
It is definitive because it was taken by PJ on the actual night of the "disappearance"
Please note this photo was taken several hours after, when the full moon had risen fairly high in the sky.
Earlier, at 10pm, it would I think have been darker than the photo shows.
And remember this photo was taken from adult eye-level - the view from small child eye-level would be less.
Lower photo ("Foto 16") here
http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/foto15.jpg

The table they were sitting at is smack bang in the centre of those two shrubs. Yes you can see the door from the tapas as the tapas is lower as the resort slopes down to the sea.

[pegasus]

The table they were sitting at is smack bang in the centre of those two shrubs. Yes you can see the door from the tapas as the tapas is lower as the resort slopes down to the sea.

The children's bedroom was out of earshot and completely out of sight of both the Tapas restuarant, and, on Wednesday evening, the Tapas bar.

[sadie]

The children's bedroom was out of earshot and completely out of sight of both the Tapas restuarant, and, on Wednesday evening, the Tapas bar.

That is true but Madeleine could get out of bed and she had legs

[pegasus]

That is true but Madeleine could get out of bed and she had legs

Agreed, and also it is easy to open the lounge to balcony sliding glass door, and only then is it possible to attract the diners' attention by waving or shouting from the balcony.