Author Topic: can anyone who believes Jeremy is innocent actaully provide a basis for such  (Read 29804 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

Thank you Myster.  I am afraid this is where my OCD kicks in ie I need PRECISE measurements to the nearest mm.  "Sheila Caffell was thought to have a short reach" doesn't sound very PRECISE.  Unless we have precise measurements including length of reach it's pretty irrelevant.  I don't think it is necessary for me to retrieve the photo of SC with the rifle which we are all familiar with but the one thing that stands out for me is the length of her fingers.  Although I accept that her long nails may give the appearance of her fingers being longer than they actually were.  Assuming her fingers were longer than average (and certainly her feet were larger than average according to AE's wit stats) she may have been long limbed too.  There are too many unknowns to draw anything meaningful from it.  I think I read somewhere SC was 5' 7" and JB 5' 10"?  (I am teeny only 5' 3.5", 8st 7llbs, size 8.  I can be fierce but overall I think good things come in small packages  8**8:/: which might just be music to your ears  8(0(*

I think the idea that SC shot herself with the silencer attached and somehow returned it to the gun cupboard is the stuff of fairies.  I am more inclined to think JB guilty than thinking SC used the silencer and returned it to the gun cupboard.

I love how women always have to count that extra half inch.

Not even the most staunch Jeremy supporters claim Sheila managed to put the moderator away after shooting herself with it.  At trial and on appeal the argument was that she put the moderator away before shooting herself.
The argument was that the blood inside belonged to June and Nevill and that she put it away after she killed everyone which of course implicates your question of why woudl she go kill herself in the master bedroom? 

Another question is why would she bother to go downstairs and put it away.  But also this would mean before the murders she went and got it and attached it because Jeremy claims it had not been attached.  This makes no sense for a person supposedly in a crazy rage but rather indicates preplanning.  Since the use of the moderator makes it extremely unlikely she was the killer instead most supporters argue publicly (though not in court because there is no evidence to support the claim) that the evidence on/in the moderator was fabricated and that it wasn't used at all.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Could be a plain clothes police officer. The other 1985-6 period photos in the mag of Julie Mugford , Stan Jones, the Boutflours etc. also belonged to the Anglia Press Agency, ie. from East Anglia - Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex. So perhaps it was taken in WHF around that time.

IF it is WHF since the gun is not damaged that means the photo was taken prior to the murders. 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Myster

IF it is WHF since the gun is not damaged that means the photo was taken prior to the murders.
Unless as I said it was an older model which belonged to Anthony Pargeter. Didn't he also own one, and was surprised to see the new one belonging to the Bambers when he looked inside the gun cupboard, prior to the murders.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Impaired doesn't mean he would not be able to try to use his hand to hold the rifle.  At any rate he had full use of his right arm anyway and thus could indeed have grabbed the  weapon with it.  Since the killer prevailed that means the effort to strip it from the killer was ultimately unsuccessful and all he anaged to do was buy a little more time.

Myster filled in most of the details of import regarding the size of the weapon. 

If you ar holding a broom (obviously lighter than a rifle) and someone tries to take it from you how will the broom what directions will it move and how high will you be holding it?  Are you going to raise it well above your head?  Obviously you want to hold if close to your chest to get the best leverage. The other person would want to twist and yank it to try to pry it away. 

No one is going to be holding it above their head like an axe.

This actually gives a good view of how the killer probably would be holding it as Nevill tried to take it away could can get an idea of height from it rather well.

While you can push the rifle away from the barrel area to try to take it away you would want to grab a more substantial area along the foregrip (the area in from of the magazine) as you can see even though the person in the photo has a hand there someone else can also grab the same area because it is long.   




One of the parties would be likely go for the trigger area as well since that is an ideal place to hold onto.

OMFG it's Rick Astley!

Errrmm...oh yes trigger area...yes I am sure it is an ideal place to hold onto  8(0(* 

Scipio I don't think you should take this over to Blue it might get the knitting circle crowd a little over excited  8(0(*

 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

I love how women always have to count that extra half inch.

Not even the most staunch Jeremy supporters claim Sheila managed to put the moderator away after shooting herself with it.  At trial and on appeal the argument was that she put the moderator away before shooting herself.
The argument was that the blood inside belonged to June and Nevill and that she put it away after she killed everyone which of course implicates your question of why woudl she go kill herself in the master bedroom? 

Another question is why would she bother to go downstairs and put it away.  But also this would mean before the murders she went and got it and attached it because Jeremy claims it had not been attached.  This makes no sense for a person supposedly in a crazy rage but rather indicates preplanning.  Since the use of the moderator makes it extremely unlikely she was the killer instead most supporters argue publicly (though not in court because there is no evidence to support the claim) that the evidence on/in the moderator was fabricated and that it wasn't used at all.

It can make a big difference you know  8(0(*

Shouldn't Chloe 23 be doing all the smutty stuff  >@@(*&)
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

I love how women always have to count that extra half inch.

Not even the most staunch Jeremy supporters claim Sheila managed to put the moderator away after shooting herself with it.  At trial and on appeal the argument was that she put the moderator away before shooting herself.
The argument was that the blood inside belonged to June and Nevill and that she put it away after she killed everyone which of course implicates your question of why woudl she go kill herself in the master bedroom? 

Another question is why would she bother to go downstairs and put it away.  But also this would mean before the murders she went and got it and attached it because Jeremy claims it had not been attached.  This makes no sense for a person supposedly in a crazy rage but rather indicates preplanning.  Since the use of the moderator makes it extremely unlikely she was the killer instead most supporters argue publicly (though not in court because there is no evidence to support the claim) that the evidence on/in the moderator was fabricated and that it wasn't used at all.

At last we agree on something  8((()*/  What on earth went through Geoffrey Rivlins QC's mind to dream up such a truly bizarre idea?  How on earth did he expect to sell that to the jury?  It is crazy, madness, as is the idea that the blood found in the silencer could possibly be an intimate mix of June and NB's.  Geoffrey Rivlin QC has a lot to answer for in this sorry saga and this is probably one of the reasons he opted for a change of career ie from barrister to judge in 1989.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

There are several narrow parallel bruises matching the width of the rifle barrel, and several gouge wounds.

Could the latter have been caused by the front-sight hood (the cylindrical part which covers the actual sight itself to stop extraneous light affecting your view when the rifle is aimed in the normal way).

Vanezis noted that there were 4 marks caused by the "rounded end of that object".

*******************************************

The rifle in your photo looks a different one to the actual murder weapon held by PC Whiddon -

1). The short cylindrical front-sight hood is missing. (arrowed)

2). The stock where his right hand is holding the rifle doesn't look damaged, (arrowed) although it's just as difficult
      to see any damage in the Whiddon photo.

If this photo was taken on the 7th. August 1985 why is a moderator fitted, when it was only discovered days later by David Boutflour?
Could this be Anthony Pargeter's Anschütz rifle?
I'm trying to figure out in which part of the house that photo was taken and who it was holding the rifle.... is he a plain clothes policeman?



www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=275.msg27957#msg27957


Is this really the same rifle?


« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 06:10:50 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline scipio_usmc

Unless as I said it was an older model which belonged to Anthony Pargeter. Didn't he also own one, and was surprised to see the new one belonging to the Bambers when he looked inside the gun cupboard, prior to the murders.

AP had a bolt action BRNO.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

At last we agree on something  8((()*/  What on earth went through Geoffrey Rivlins QC's mind to dream up such a truly bizarre idea?  How on earth did he expect to sell that to the jury?  It is crazy, madness, as is the idea that the blood found in the silencer could possibly be an intimate mix of June and NB's.  Geoffrey Rivlin QC has a lot to answer for in this sorry saga and this is probably one of the reasons he opted for a change of career ie from barrister to judge in 1989.   

He dealt with the moderator evidence to the best extent he could.  While still a loser argument it was better than no defense at all

The defense expert he hired not only afforded no way to assert that the evidence had been planted, even worse he found more blood on the first 8 baffles that was consistent with Sheila's blood.  He originally said maybe the blood was a mixture of June and Nevill's blood that had not intimately mixed but after reviwing all the prosecution expert's tests and speaking with the expert he agreed with the results.

So what did Rivlin have to blunt the evidence?  Nothing he had an expert that bolstered the prosecution merely.  The best he could do was get the prosecution witness to say there was a remote chance the blood was a mix of Nevill and June's blood. 

He had a choice to argue that it was Nevill and June's blood or to make no argument at all.  If he made no argument at all and just accepted the blood was Sheila's then for sure the case is lost.  He hoped some jurors would be stupid enough to believe it was June and Nevill's blood and hioed they would not recognize that would mean Sheila had to install the moderator herself prior to the murders and remove it after killing everyone else or would accept that as a reasonable possibilty.  The jury already had to believe she had gone to the closet to get more rounds since 5-7 rounds had to come from another supply than the one in the kitchen for Sheila to have been responsible.   

This pathetic argument actually swayed 2 jurors, jurors are often not very bright and that is what he was hoping for, indeed 1 juror after the OJ SImpson trial went on TV and revealed she didn't understand what it means to say the chance of the blood being someone other than OJ was in the billions meant.  She was unaware of what the population of Earth was and therefore what the odds meant.  If you told her the Earth had a trillion people she would probably not think anything wrong with it.  When you consider there are people like that out there you can see how Rivlin's defense offered a little hope.

What was the alternative?  To say the blood go there innocently through past use?  Blood doesnt get there like that through innocent use.  He tried to get the expert to say it was possible for the blood to have gotten inside from bashing the victim with the gun and ordinary back spatter to which the expert replied it is possible a tiny bit could get inside from those methods but it would not go far inside and be no where near the volume found. 

So the option was to argue the unlikely or have no argument at all.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury Sheila's blood got inside through ordinary contamintion prior to the murders because she was there and her blood somehow got inside or ordinary contamination after the murders somehow.  I know I presented no witnesses to this effect and the prosecution expert says this is not possible but you should believe me anyway.  Thank You.

That was the alternative so it was argue the crappy position he did or that position which basically says my client is guilty and I am just here because by law says he gets to have an attorney so convict him.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Myster

www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=275.msg27957#msg27957

Is this really the same rifle?

I don't think it is.

There is definitely no damage to the stock where his right hand is positioned (unless the broken off piece is sellotaped on, which I doubt). And what reason would they have for removing the cylindrical foresight hood?



You posted an alternative photo before of the actual weapon held by PC Whiddon from a better angle so that the damage was more visible...

www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=275.msg27965#msg27965



The white-painted moulding of the wooden door-frame or panelling behind him looks similar to that of other woodwork in the kitchen photos of White House Farm. Not the actual office/den gun cupboard, but possibly the small cupboard in the main Hall, backing onto the Bottle cupboard in the GF plan. Could even be one of the other rooms such as the GF Scullery or Washroom/Toilet. There were other firearms discovered too including - a BSA Meteor .22 airgun and a Webley& Scott bolt-action .410 shotgun, both under some clothes on the spiral staircase S2 in the kitchen.

« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 03:41:30 PM by Mr Moderator »
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

This is not a rhetorical question.

When peopele believe something such belief will either be based on rational evidence or something other than rational evidence. 

On both the blue and red forums I tried to get people to provide the basis for their assertions to try to understand their positions.  Many have been non-committal and said they didn't know whether to believe Jeremy is guilty or not.  Many of those who assert he is innocent have to date failed to provide any basis for their position at all let alone a rational basis.  Those who have provided a basis have largely provided lies or at best bogus claims they believe but are false for example the assertion Nevill phoned police himself.

Jeremy supporters like Holly have at best managed to say they wonder whether the evidence to prove Jeremy's guilt was fabricated but have failed to provide any evidence at all to establish such occurred.  But Holly et al go well beyond this and assert it did happen.  Wondering whether it occured and asserted it did are two very different things.  You have no need for evidence to simply wonder.  You do have a need for evidence in order to reasonably assert something happened.

Can anyone who thinks Jeremy is innocent provide a detailed basis for why they believe such and explain whether it is based on evidence or just hunches?   

I can and have provided the basis why I believe Jeremy is guilty.


I. Zero evidence that Sheila did anything

A) What evidence is there that Sheila killed anyone?  None!

B) Any evidence she loaded a gun?  No, she had no elevated lead levels.

C) Any evidence she fired a gun?  No, she had no GSR or high velocity back spatter from the victims

D) Any evidence she beat Nevill?  No, even though she would have: damaged her nails, damaged her hand when the stock broke, been hit with medium velocity blood spatter from the victim and would have gotten her prints on the blood that was on the rifle none of this occurred.

E) Any evidence that she killed herself?  No she can't have killed herself because after she was shot while seated with her body propped against something the killer: 1) removed the moderator and put it in the closet, 2) moved her blody flat while she was still bleeding so she then bled down the side of her neck forming a blood pool, 3) placed the bible in such pool of blood then opened and closed it repeatedly before the blood dried.  Someone else had to do all these things and they were done very soon after she had been killed.

F) No indication she would do something like this and no motive.  There is no reason for her medication to stop working suddenly at 2AM while sleeping and to get dilusions.  Even before her latest medicaiton she was not having delusions about her fmaily.   There is nothing that should have agitated her while everyone was sleeping.  There is nothing to indicate she would have been likely to harm anyone else or her self.

G) No evidence she would have been able to carry out such a murder because: 1)  she had no experience using such a weapon so would not have even known how to chamber a round let alone known she needed to.  Nor would she know how to load 11 rounds (the maximum capacity of the weapon) and 11 rounds were fired in the master bedroom at the parents before Nevill escaped to the kitchen. 2) schizophrenia prevents people from being organized killers 3) her medication would have harmed her already poor hand eye coordination which was so bad she could not even be taught to drive. Her medication causes involuntary movements like Parkison's.

H) What evidence is there that Nevill actually phoned Jeremy?  None

I) Jeremy's story kept shifting and many details was contradicted by others suggesting he was trying to frame Sheila.  For instance, he initially told police she had taken her shooting and she had fired all guns in the house including the gun he left on the kitchen table with a loaded magazine but he later acknowledged she had never fired it or any other weapons to his knowledge.  The claim he got the gun out to shoot rabbits is not credible because he was not known to ever do such.  His ex-girlfriend and extended family said he did not like the shooting of rabbits.   Worse, his story of the gun being found without the scope and moderator attached is not credible.  His claim that Nevill sometimes removed the scope was disputed by others and he was unable to present any valid reason for why the scope would be removed. He clearly staged the bullets in the kitchen, they can't have been the sloe source of ammunition used in the murders.  There were 48-50 rounds allegedly when he supposedly left them in the kitchen prior to the murders and there were 30 after the murders.  25 were used in the murders.  For his story to be true that means the killer used 18-20 rounds from this pile of ammo but instead of using all 25 from it went to the closet to get another 5-7 rounds.  Why would anyone do that let alone Sheila while she is supposedly enraged?  So all the available evidence in this regard suggests that Jeremy lied about getting the gun out, loading it and leaving it and additional ammunition in the kitchen for Sheila to grab. This tale appears to be complete fiction meant to frame Sheila because there is no way she would have fetched the gun herself while arguing with anyone and if she had then as she tried to load it she coudl have been disarmed. So this tale was crafted of the gun being left in front of her for her to grab as she was arguing with nevill, shooting him in the kitchen and then moving on to the rest.  But as we know the shooting started upstairs not in the kitchen so the whole thing is BS.

J) Did Jeremy react as someone who received such a call would react?  No someone receiving such call would call 999 to report it and then go over to investigate.  Instead he called Julie so she could confirm that he told her Nevill called him thinking this would make his claim of Nevill phoning more credible.  20 minutes or more after this he finally called police.  At trial he stated the delay was because at first he didn't think it was urgent but after thinking about it a while realized it was.   All he cared about wan an alibi.  Pretending Nevill called him was an alibi and he wanted that alibi to be established further by police.  He didn't want police to arrive at WHF and see him there already because they could think he went in and did something prior to their arrival.  His alibi was to be that Nevill phoned and was killed after calling while Jeremy was not there.  So he needed the police to see he was not there. Thus he parked on the side of the road and after police passed him, then he slowly followed and arrived 3 minuts later so they could see him arrive.  No one who actually received such a call would be engaged in such kind of behavior they would go to the house and try to listen and spy from outside at minimum to then talk to police when they arrive.  Some would actually do more than just try to spy and listen and would actually have entered.  I am one such person. 

K) Would Nevill have been likely to make such a call to him? No because:
1) Nevill didn't trust him and intimated to others he thought Jeremy wanted him dead
2) Jeremy had an answering machine and the phone was on the ground floor thus the phone would be unlikely to wake Jeremy up and even if he did wake up the answering machine would have simply picked up.  It would tkae Jeremy several minutes to reach the phone even if he had woken up.  Thus if a true emergency Nevill would have dialled 999 not called Jeremy
3) Nevill was taller and stronger than Jeremy so could have disarmed Sheila as easily or more easily than Jeremy, why would he decide to have Jeremy disarms her instead?  Worse, it would take Jeremy 20 minutes or more to answer, dress, drive there and find a way in even if  Jeremy did get the message.  Why would he decide to wait that long instead of trying to disarm her himself?
4) Jeremy antagonized Sheila so would agitate the situationa nd cause her to be more likely to fire not less likely.  Nevill was the adult with the most calming effect on Sheila and thus best chance of calming her down. 
5) How would Nevill be in a position to make the call?  How did he get to the kitchen and where was Sheila while he was there?  Why would June stay in bed yet he would run to use the phone?  If Sheila was in front of him he could not have made the call she would have shot him.  If she was not there in the room at that moment why would he choose to make a call that likely would not be answered and if answered would still not result in help coming for at least 20 minutes when he instead could have used the opportunity to arm himself?  If he is truly frieghtened then he would have grabbed a knife, gun or some other weapon that were all readily available in the kitchen to use to confront Sheila with.  In the meantime the evidence shows that the killer caught the parents in their bedroom and shot 11 times.  June was killed but Nevill was merely wounded and managed to reach the kitchen where he struggled with his killer.  His killer had an empty gun so had to beat Nevill unconscious in order to then be able to reload the gun and fire 4 more shots to kill him. There was no opportunity for Nevill to make any call.   

So the evidence against Jeremy is strong. 

I never ever have seen a Jeremy defender able to provide a list of reasons for their views let lone one that cites evidence which refutes the evidence that proves Jeremy is guilty.



That’s an excellent post, Scorpio !

I’m glad I stumbled upon this as there’s a new post of a similar vein asking for proof of Sheila’s guilt

So far, not one person had been able to provide any, despite the same old posters still claiming the psychopath, Jeremy Bamber is innocent
Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Yes, an excellent post which I don’t believe can be credibly refuted for the most part.  In CAL’s book I’ve just got up to the bit where Jeremy discusses buying a Porsche with proceeds from the caravan park with a policeman whilst attending the Farm on the morning it happened.  I mean, is this perfectly normal, explicable behaviour in someone whose family is likely lying in pools of their own blood?
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".

Offline Holly Goodhead

Yes, an excellent post which I don’t believe can be credibly refuted for the most part.  In CAL’s book I’ve just got up to the bit where Jeremy discusses buying a Porsche with proceeds from the caravan park with a policeman whilst attending the Farm on the morning it happened.  I mean, is this perfectly normal, explicable behaviour in someone whose family is likely lying in pools of their own blood?

At the time he was being told by the police all would be OK.  The police initiated the conversation to take his mind off things:

Ground 11 – the proposed purchase of a Porsche by the appellant 428. This ground was abandoned before the hearing and nothing further need be said about it.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Yes, an excellent post which I don’t believe can be credibly refuted for the most part.  In CAL’s book I’ve just got up to the bit where Jeremy discusses buying a Porsche with proceeds from the caravan park with a policeman whilst attending the Farm on the morning it happened.  I mean, is this perfectly normal, explicable behaviour in someone whose family is likely lying in pools of their own blood?


Of course it isn’t normal behaviour.

To supposedly receive a phone call from your dad, saying: “Help me. Sheila’s gone berserk with the gun” and he supposedly sounded TERRIFIED, you’d rush like mad to the farm after calling 999 and would be in a terrible state of panic, especially when you heard the dogs barking and whining knowing your dad would have gone to investigate if the dogs were barking like that.

When he turned up AFTER the police, they were surprised how calm he was. And when other officers arrived a couple of hours later, one thought Jeremy was a CID officer as he was so calm!

And then to talk about cars while there’s still no-one coming out the house, and say “The Osea Road Caravan Site will see next a brand new Porsche this year” is the talk of a psychopath.

Just a couple of hours after that, when they found everyone dead, Jeremy was fit enough to drive home...and when got thre he said to the police he’d who’d accompanied him “I’m starving!” and started cooking up bacon!! You can’t eat when you’re in deep traumatised shock, and devastated with sudden grief!  He then went for a big nosh-up that night in a restaurant and had Champagne while kissing a Julie and chuckling....
Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

At the time he was being told by the police all would be OK.  The police initiated the conversation to take his mind off things:

Ground 11 – the proposed purchase of a Porsche by the appellant 428. This ground was abandoned before the hearing and nothing further need be said about it.
The policeman Myall judged the conversation to be “very strange”, according to CAL’s book.
"You can't reason with the unreasonable".