Author Topic: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?  (Read 23375 times)

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Offline Brietta

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #105 on: July 14, 2014, 03:17:57 PM »
I'm not claiming it wasn't understandable that the McCanns acted in the way they did but simply that it compromised the crime scene.

We are all familiar with the scene of the technician dusting the shutters for fingerprints ... minus protective clothing and with her long hair wafting in the breeze.
So if the professionals have not been the subject of vilification for unprofessional conduct ... it makes it all the more extraordinary that civilians in the midst of the biggest trauma of their lives have been roundly criticised because in searching for a missing child they may have inadvertantly contaminated the scene.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline faithlilly

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #106 on: July 14, 2014, 03:27:21 PM »
We are all familiar with the scene of the technician dusting the shutters for fingerprints ... minus protective clothing and with her long hair wafting in the breeze.
So if the professionals have not been the subject of vilification for unprofessional conduct ... it makes it all the more extraordinary that civilians in the midst of the biggest trauma of their lives have been roundly criticised because in searching for a missing child they may have inadvertantly contaminated the scene.

It's not about criticism, it's about admitting to the reality of the situation which is that before the GNR arrived the forensics in the apartment had been severely compromised by people searching for Madeleine.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Brietta

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #107 on: July 14, 2014, 03:44:21 PM »
And do you really think that happens in the UK ?

 Do you think that if a crime is committed in the UK on private premises those premises are cordoned off until the perpetrator is found ? What if they are never found ?

Usually in the UK a crime scene becomes a sealed area at the time and all necessary work carried out before it is released.
I think it is the fact that 5a was not designated as such until two months had passed that raised eyebrows.


The apartment where Madeleine McCann vanished was used by holiday-makers for nearly two months before police sealed it off as a permanent crime scene, case files have showed. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2523523/Madeleine-McCann-Apartment-was-not-made-crime-scene-for-two-months.html
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline faithlilly

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #108 on: July 14, 2014, 03:55:50 PM »
Usually in the UK a crime scene becomes a sealed area at the time and all necessary work carried out before it is released.
I think it is the fact that 5a was not designated as such until two months had passed that raised eyebrows.


The apartment where Madeleine McCann vanished was used by holiday-makers for nearly two months before police sealed it off as a permanent crime scene, case files have showed. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2523523/Madeleine-McCann-Apartment-was-not-made-crime-scene-for-two-months.html


The apartment was sealed in the early hours of the morning after Madeleine disappeared then when all, assumed, necessary work  had been carried out it was then handed back to the owner. That further forensic work may be needed could not be foreseen.

Of course all if this is academic because the crime scene had been fatally compromised before the forensic team had even heard the name Madeleine McCann.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #109 on: July 14, 2014, 04:25:00 PM »

The apartment was sealed in the early hours of the morning after Madeleine disappeared then when all, assumed, necessary work  had been carried out it was then handed back to the owner. That further forensic work may be needed could not be foreseen.

Of course all if this is academic because the crime scene had been fatally compromised before the forensic team had even heard the name Madeleine McCann.

Allowing the flat to be let out was an absolute farce, and that alone is a convincing argument that Amaral should not have been left in charge of a missing sweet wrapper, let alone the disappearance of a young child.   

So lets just get back to the dogs, that some are so fond of quoting as irrefutable evidence.  How do you square that with "fatally compromised"? 

You really cannot have it both ways. 

Offline Carana

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #110 on: July 14, 2014, 04:39:45 PM »
It's not about criticism, it's about admitting to the reality of the situation which is that before the GNR arrived the forensics in the apartment had been severely compromised by people searching for Madeleine.

I have no problem with the fact that various people had been in the apartment prior to the arrival of the GNR, who then also checked through the apartment.

I do have a problem with laying all the blame on one side or the other on that evening. Both the family/friends/OC staff plus the GNR had been in there. It's not within the remit (as far as I'm aware) to conduct forensic examinations, so that couldn't have started until the PJ arrived and were satisfied that she really wasn't anywhere to be found.

On the other hand,  the keys to the apartment were handed back one month later and the apartment was then let out to other families, months before the dogs then turned up. 

Offline Brietta

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #111 on: July 14, 2014, 04:41:29 PM »

The apartment was sealed in the early hours of the morning after Madeleine disappeared then when all, assumed, necessary work  had been carried out it was then handed back to the owner. That further forensic work may be needed could not be foreseen.

Of course all if this is academic because the crime scene had been fatally compromised before the forensic team had even heard the name Madeleine McCann.

The ineptitude of the forensic team was matched only by the ineptitude of the lead investigators.

They seemed to be unaware that the laws on ‘judicial secrecy’ were not applicable in the case of a missing child. 

They were allowed to issue information and descriptions but they couldn’t quite take that on board.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

stephen25000

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Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #112 on: July 14, 2014, 04:51:02 PM »
The ineptitude of the forensic team was matched only by the ineptitude of the lead investigators.

They seemed to be unaware that the laws on ‘judicial secrecy’ were not applicable in the case of a missing child. 

They were allowed to issue information and descriptions but they couldn’t quite take that on board.



Let's remember the ineptitude of Madeleine's parents, if not for which, this thread would not exist.

Let's remember the contamination of the crime scene before the police arrived. Hardly surprising the inconclusive forensics, even though the dogs indicated.

Let's remember dog's don't lie, people do.

Let's remember the leaks from the 'sources close to the mccanns', when and where it suited them.




Offline Brietta

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #113 on: July 14, 2014, 04:56:41 PM »
I have no problem with the fact that various people had been in the apartment prior to the arrival of the GNR, who then also checked through the apartment.

I do have a problem with laying all the blame on one side or the other on that evening. Both the family/friends/OC staff plus the GNR had been in there. It's not within the remit (as far as I'm aware) to conduct forensic examinations, so that couldn't have started until the PJ arrived and were satisfied that she really wasn't anywhere to be found.

On the other hand,  the keys to the apartment were handed back one month later and the apartment was then let out to other families, months before the dogs then turned up.

I don't think it could have been considered a crime scene until it had been thoroughly searched.  In the circumstances I would imagine that they would be checking and rechecking impossible places in panic and hope.
As they did on arrival the GNR looked for themselves and checked on what others had done.

I do think that when it was determined she was nowhere to be found either in the apartment or in the surrounding area the protocols for missing children should have immediately been implemented ... and the decision to do that would not have been the responsibility of the 'boots on the ground'.

Eddie and Keela could have worked in a fresh crime scene, they were there to be used, and a lot of the ambiguities of Madeleine's case might never have arisen.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Alfred R Jones

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Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #114 on: July 14, 2014, 05:54:58 PM »
Two Portuguese officers among the first to investigate Madeleine McCann's disappearance yesterday blamed their superiors for allowing the initial crime scene to be contaminated by a 'circus' of people

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-491940/Police-looked-Madeleine-crime-scene-trampled-circus-people.html#ixzz37SkAVnlG
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

And before "Faithlilly" rolls her eyes and claims this article was written on behalf of the McCanns by the Daily Mail it's worth noting that these two policemen also had their doubts about the McCanns, from the same article:

One said of the McCann group: "They were upset, panicking, wideeyed, the usual, but there was something else.


"They were scared - not the usual scared, they were jumpy, nervous. It wasn't normal. None of it was normal.


"They'd all been drinking. They weren't falling over but it was hard to deal with them. They were hard to get sense out of."




Offline pathfinder73

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #115 on: July 14, 2014, 07:05:24 PM »
I wonder if they were trying to break the shutters  >@@(*&) 3 allegedly had a go at them - GM, DW and FP. Dianne and Fiona couldn't raise them from the outside. The Portuguese paedo gang may have taken the blame for it! Instead of searching they were investigating and tampering with shutters  >@@(*&)  I'd like to see them explain to the PJ Oh sorry it was us that accidentally broke the shutters or more likely keep your traps shut and say they were found broken. GM knew straight away it was them and still the crime scene was compromised.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline DCI

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Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #116 on: July 14, 2014, 07:25:42 PM »
Witness Statement
 
João Franciso Páscoa Luis Trigo Barreiras
 
Date: 2007/11/20
 
Time: 14h00
 
DIC Portimão
Occupation: PJ Deputy Specialist
Place of work: Criminal Investigation Department Portimão
 
He is a specialist in the area of Criminology for the PJ and works in the Criminal Investigation department in Portimão.
 
His professional responsibilities are to carry out examinations at crime scenes, such as detecting finger prints, biological examinations as well as the identification, signalling and collection of other traces. He is also responsible for making photographic reports and sketches. On the date of the events – 3rd May 2007 he was on duty at the Portimão DIC.
 
At about 00h10 on the morning of the 4th, he had just finished filing a report about a fire, when he was informed that a child had disappeared in Praia da Luz.
 
He was brought into service together with an Inspector from the station. It was the inspector’s duty to take notes of the services as well as all the information relating to them. The inspector who accompanied him on that date, Vitor Martins, informed him that the case in question was that of the disappearance of a small girl, of British nationality, who was staying at the Ocean Club with her parents.
 
They immediately left for the scene and arrived about 30 – 40 minutes later, at about 00h40/00h50.
 
When they arrived at the scene, which they immediately identified due to the presence of GNR officers, as well as quite a lot of people who were walking around the street searching for the child, they immediately went to the apartment in question, where they found several people, including some GNR officers, as well as the head of the Lagos GNR station.
 
He states that the people inside the apartment and close to it, entered and left the building and circulated in the whole apartment, completely freely, in other words, without there being any restriction or care in preserving the scene.
 
He said that these people were the friends of the parents of the missing girl and a lady responsible for the resort called Silvia.
 
He was shown the room the child had disappeared from, having noticed that people also entered and left that room without any care in the sense of preserving traces. Inside this room there were two children, babies, sleeping in two cots placed in the middle of the room.
 
It was requested that the babies were moved, which was done accordingly, the witness having subsequently put his gloves on to begin the on-site inspection.
 
At that moment one of the GNR officers told the witness that they had already searched for the girl in the wardrobes and other places in the apartment without having taken any care as to leaving their own traces or for destroying or adulterating any traces that might be of interest to the investigation.

 
After the arrival of the witness and his colleague Vitor Martins the scene was isolated and the inspection began, namely the collection of statements and inspection of the scene, the respective reports that were subsequently attached to the process documents.
 
The witness carried out finger print testing on the inside of the bedroom window, where the girl had been sleeping, leaving other examinations for the following day given that on that occasion these tests could not be carried out in the best technical conditions. For this reason, the apartments and the surrounding area were sealed off, watched over by the GNR officers who remained on site.
 
As far as he knows, after the first examination, other members from the finger print detection service and also officers from the LPC Crime Scene arrived at the scene.
 
The witness states that, at a given moment, the father of the missing girl led him to understand that he had already contacted the Sky News TV station and informed them of the situation.
 
As much the father as the girl's mother looked quite worried with the situation and he can even confirm that the mother was very agitated and out of control, crying a lot and shouting in an uncontrolled manner, saying in English "They have taken her".
 
He remembers that he remained on the scene until about 04.00. There were many people in the street. He does not remember having seen Robert Murat there on that occasion.
 
When questioned, he says that it was a fresh night with some breeze. It was not a clear night, nor was it very dark. Referring to the light conditions around the apartment, he says they were very dark, and thinks that even on a bright night there would always be little light around the apartment because of the trees and lack of street lights.
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ferryman

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Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #117 on: July 14, 2014, 08:27:15 PM »
After the arrival of the witness and his colleague Vitor Martins the scene was isolated and the inspection began, namely the collection of statements and inspection of the scene, the respective reports that were subsequently attached to the process documents.

For me, that is the key paragraph

Offline Brietta

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #118 on: July 14, 2014, 08:43:57 PM »
After the arrival of the witness and his colleague Vitor Martins the scene was isolated and the inspection began, namely the collection of statements and inspection of the scene, the respective reports that were subsequently attached to the process documents.

For me, that is the key paragraph

 ... for me it confirms that statements were taken in the apartment.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 10:23:58 PM by Brietta »
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline faithlilly

Re: Could more have been done to preserve a potential crime scene?
« Reply #119 on: July 15, 2014, 10:11:03 AM »
Two Portuguese officers among the first to investigate Madeleine McCann's disappearance yesterday blamed their superiors for allowing the initial crime scene to be contaminated by a 'circus' of people

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-491940/Police-looked-Madeleine-crime-scene-trampled-circus-people.html#ixzz37SkAVnlG
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

And before "Faithlilly" rolls her eyes and claims this article was written on behalf of the McCanns by the Daily Mail it's worth noting that these two policemen also had their doubts about the McCanns, from the same article:

One said of the McCann group: "They were upset, panicking, wideeyed, the usual, but there was something else.


"They were scared - not the usual scared, they were jumpy, nervous. It wasn't normal. None of it was normal.


"They'd all been drinking. They weren't falling over but it was hard to deal with them. They were hard to get sense out of."

Are these officers statements in the files Alfred because I have never read that any officer said the McCann's or their friend's was affected by drink ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?