Ccat: Who does that pile of folders/ papers belong to?

[Angelo222]

We don't know what the MO was - as we haven't been given details of the information which emanated from the interviews which will have taken place with the parents. 

It is not unknown for serial sex offenders to progressively get worse if they are not caught.  In fact I believe that is what usually happens.

IMO even an accidental death at the hands of the perpetrator is a very credible possibility and a very good reason to remove the body.

Speaking of the assaults that have recently been revealed, one thing comes to mind.  It has been claimed that an abductor may have been already in the apartment when GMcC did his check around 9.10pm.  Had that been the case and had it been the smelly pot-bellied bloke we so often hear about then in the confines of the apartment it was Gerry who would have smelled him and not the dogs.

[Carana]

Speaking of the assaults that have recently been revealed, one thing comes to mind.  It has been claimed that an abductor may have been already in the apartment when GMcC did his check around 9.10pm.  Had that been the case and had it been the smelly pot-bellied bloke we so often hear about then in the confines of the apartment it was Gerry who would have smelled him and not the dogs.

If he had a strong personal odour, I'd agree that Gerry would probably have noticed. However not all of the victims reported that, IIRC.

Neither the parents' bedroom, nor the kitchen were checked by the initial forensics team so it's not impossible that someone was already in there.

On the other hand, the idea that someone could have been lurking somewhere may just be thinking out loud about possibilities at the time in view of the relatively short time-frames, particularly as they were convinced that Jane's sighting was Madeleine.

[pegasus]

My own observation on the claimed alert to cuddle cat is that Eddie would have nosed into the cupboard if the soft toy was his target.  From the video it is plain to see that the dog made no attempt whatsoever to gain access to the cupboards even though the doors were left slightly ajar.  A bit of a dogs dinner I agree.

Precisely. Eddie did not alert to Cuddlecat.
This is very important. The non-signalling of the cat tells me that:
1. The mother is telling the truth when she says the cat was on the bed when she entered the room.
2. The child left the cat on the bed when she got out of bed and walked into the other room.

[Brietta]

Precisely. Eddie did not alert to Cuddlecat.
This is very important. The non-signalling of the cat tells me that:
1. The mother is telling the truth when she says the cat was on the bed when she entered the room.
2. The child left the cat on the bed when she got out of bed and walked into the other room.

I agree that there was no alert from Eddie to Ccat and it is also my opinion that Madeleine's mother told the truth not only about finding the toy on the bed but about everything else she witnessed that night.

Dr Amaral theorised that Madeleine left bed of her own volition to walk into the other room where she met with a fatal accident which her parents and their friends proceeded to cover up.
That just did not happen and you only have to think "Why would they?" to realise that they would have had no reason to attempt to hide such a thing.

[pegasus]

I agree that there was no alert from Eddie to Ccat and it is also my opinion that Madeleine's mother told the truth not only about finding the toy on the bed but about everything else she witnessed that night.

I agree completely with you on that. An honest witness, and a big mistake by Mr Amaral to assume the contrary.

Dr Amaral theorised that Madeleine left bed of her own volition to walk into the other room

Well that seems like the most likely reason for a child not being in their bed doesn't it?
I think that is what happened. I do not understand why almost everyone from both sides (except Mr Amaral and me) rejects this simple and entirely possible action.

where she met with a fatal accident

Just looking at other cases it is physically not absolutely impossible.

which her parents and their friends proceeded to cover up.
That just did not happen and you only have to think "Why would they?" to realise that they would have had no reason to attempt to hide such a thing.

Here again I agree with you. Such a large quantity of people covering something like that up is absolutely unprecedented in previous cases and is impossible IMO.

[Brietta]

I agree completely with you on that.Well that seems like the most likely reason for a child not being in their bed doesn't it?
I think that is what happened. I do not understand why everyone from both sides (except Mr Amaral and me) rejects this simple and entirely possible action. Just looking at other cases it is physically not absolutely impossible.Here again I agree with you. Such a large quantity of people covering something like that up is absolutely unprecedented in previous cases and is impossible IMO.

Heri is of the opinion that she left her bed and went to the window and was lifted out, he demonstrates how this would be possible and how quickly it could be done in his blog.

It would have been possible for Madeleine to meet with an accident; but I discount that because I do not believe such an event would have been covered up; also I think it would not have been possible for her to either open the doors or the window and shutter to exit; I believe someone unknown removed her from the apartment.

[pegasus]

Heri is of the opinion that she left her bed and went to the window and was lifted out, he demonstrates how this would be possible and how quickly it could be done in his blog.

It would have been possible for Madeleine to meet with an accident; but I discount that because I do not believe such an event would have been covered up; also I think it would not have been possible for her to either open the doors or the window and shutter to exit; I believe someone unknown removed her from the apartment.

Well then you and me and Heri and Amaral have in common the small but important recognition, that it is possible the child may have got out of bed of own volition.
Surprisingly almost everyone who proposes abduction seems to think it could only have been by lifting directly from the bed. If I were proposing abduction I would think it far more likely that the child heard something and woke and walked into another room and got abducted from that other room. Do you rule that out?

[Brietta]

Well then you and me and Heri and Amaral have in common the small but important recognition, that it is possible the child may have got out of bed of own volition.
Surprisingly almost everyone who proposes abduction seems to think it could only have been by lifting directly from the bed. If I were proposing abduction I would think it far more likely that the child heard something and woke and walked into another room and got abducted from that other room. Do you rule that out?

No, I think it is a possibility; because we just do not know what happened so anything is possible. 

But although I think it possible and ties in with a lone abductor / burglar who was in the room when Madeleine interrupted him/her ~ it isn't what I think happened.

I also think she was alive when she left the apartment, but accept the possibility that she might have been dead.

I think Madeleine was targeted and I think a lot to do with it was the ease of access to and the vulnerability of apartment 5a; I think the absence of her parents was a ‘bonus’ but I think she would have been taken anyway during the night via the front door for which, I am sure, the perpetrator had a key.

 

[Carana]

Well then you and me and Heri and Amaral have in common the small but important recognition, that it is possible the child may have got out of bed of own volition.
Surprisingly almost everyone who proposes abduction seems to think it could only have been by lifting directly from the bed. If I were proposing abduction I would think it far more likely that the child heard something and woke and walked into another room and got abducted from that other room. Do you rule that out?

I wouldn't rule it out, either.

However, in that scenario, I've often wondered if she might have woken up to go to the loo and was faced with someone while up. In favour of that is the relatively neat bed and she would presumably not have taken CC with her to the loo. Against it, is that she was particularly tired and depending on the length of her natural first cycle of sleep and when she disappeared, it might not have been completed by that time.

If she had woken up due to an intruder in the bedroom... what would she have done? Immediately screamed if still very sleepy? Grabbed CC and "hidden" under the covers? Slipped out of bed silently towards and past an unknown person in the dark? The latter seems more unlikely to me.

A point that I still find important concerns the "lost" six hairs on the bed: if they had been analysed and found to belong to someone who had no reason to be there, then that might have proven to be a significant clue.

[sadie]

Precisely. Eddie did not alert to Cuddlecat.
This is very important. The non-signalling of the cat tells me that:
1. The mother is telling the truth when she says the cat was on the bed when she entered the room.
2. The child left the cat on the bed when she got out of bed and walked into the other room.

Soz Pegasus, I dont think she walked into the other room.  I think she was almost certainly drugged, then lifted from her bed.  Children do not leave their beds as neatly as that.

We cant be sure, admittedly, that the bed was exactly like that when Madeleine went.
TBH, we are all assuming that it was and that is silly really .... cos we dont know.

My bet is that Kate opened the bed up and searched in there despite seeing no Madeleine shape there.  In panic, I probably would have done.  Also, my bet is that others might have looked into the bed to check for any clues that they might find.

[Anna]

Soz Pegasus, I dont think she walked into the other room.  I think she was almost certainly drugged, then lifted from her bed.  Children do not leave their beds as neatly as that.

We cant be sure, admittedly, that the bed was exactly like that when Madeleine went.
TBH, we are all assuming that it was and that is silly really .... cos we dont know.

My bet is that Kate opened the bed up and searched in there despite seeing no Madeleine shape there.  In panic, I probably would have done.  Also, my bet is that others might have looked into the bed to check for any clues that they might find.

I totally agree Sadie and most certainly someone would have pulled the bedcovers back to check and then replaced the covers

[Wonderfulspam]

Soz Pegasus, I dont think she walked into the other room.  I think she was almost certainly drugged, then lifted from her bed.  Children do not leave their beds as neatly as that.

We cant be sure, admittedly, that the bed was exactly like that when Madeleine went.
TBH, we are all assuming that it was and that is silly really .... cos we dont know.

My bet is that Kate opened the bed up and searched in there despite seeing no Madeleine shape there.  In panic, I probably would have done.  Also, my bet is that others might have looked into the bed to check for any clues that they might find.

Was Maddie lying under the covers or on top of them, or were they perhaps folded down by her feet, do we know?

Who put her to bed, was it Kate, Gerry or both of them?

[pathfinder73]

Was Maddie lying under the covers or on top of them, or were they perhaps folded down by her feet, do we know?

Who put her to bed, was it Kate, Gerry or both of them?

They don't know. Kate couldn't remember and Gerry was admiring how beautiful she was. Gerry said she was on top of the covers because it was very hot.

Kate: She was under the covers, she thinks, because it was a bit cold

Gerry: Madeleine was lying down on her left side, completely uncovered, i.e. lying on top of the covers, with the soft toy and blanket, both pink, next to her head.

[Carana]

I totally agree Sadie and most certainly someone would have pulled the bedcovers back to check and then replaced the covers

Possibly, or the reaction may have initially been to peer at the bed and give a gentle prod on the area where she should have been (so as not to wake her up, if simply asleep and not visible in the dark).

[Anna]

Possibly, or the reaction may have initially been to peer at the bed and give a gentle prod on the area where she should have been (so as not to wake her up, if simply asleep and not visible in the dark).

If there was no bump, as you would expect to find, if someone was in the bed........................What would you do next?