Are miscarriages of justice in Portugal as rare as hens teeth?

[Alice Purjorick]

Perhaps more to the point, does anyone ever get found Not Guilty in serious crime cases?

I suspect that were eyes lifted to the horizon rather than be blinkered down to Cipriano and Casa Pia purely in the context of McCann, an objective answer could be obtained.
Perhaps the question should be "are McCann supporters on this forum aware of any other Portuguese legal cases at all"? I don't recall seeing another case mentioned.
It should not be forgotten that in an inquisitorial system a confession of guilt may be rejected by the judge if there is insufficient evidence to support the confession.

[Mr Gray]

I repeat from my post 10 on this thread:
Extending from that is how can one know "there never has been a miscarriage of justice"; one can only know with any degree of certainty whether or not one has been brought to light which is quite a different proposition. [/b][/i]
How many appeals have been made in Portugal? (bearing in mind that appeals may be made by both sides in inquisitorial systems unlike in adversarial systems where the prosecutor cannot appeal). Of those how many were upheld? 
Ignoring the Cipriano case which according to Portuguese law so far is NOT a miscarriage of justice however we may feel about it as no successful appeal has been made except I believe with respect to the length of sentence (I remain content to be corrected on this).
Whether a TV programme has been made about miscarriages of justice in Portugal would be a function of whether the TV stations and their advertisers felt it would attract a big enough audience rather than any other factor.

I'm not sure whether you understand what's going on here. It is Montclair who has made this claim...not me..he then seemed to change his mind. I have asked him to give us some examples of successful appeals but as yet he has not.

[Mr Gray]

I suspect that were eyes lifted to the horizon rather than be blinkered down to Cipriano and Casa Pia purely in the context of McCann, an objective answer could be obtained.
Perhaps the question should be "are McCann supporters on this forum aware of any other Portuguese legal cases at all"? I don't recall seeing another case mentioned.
It should not be forgotten that in an inquisitorial system a confession of guilt may be rejected by the judge if there is insufficient evidence to support the confession.

I am aware of two other Portuguese cases ...this forum is the MadeleiNE Forum so they have no real relevance...unlike the cipriano case which has several linking factors

[Mr Gray]

I haven't said the problem is systemic...I have asked the question...you really are not reading the posts properly and keep drawing the wrong conclusions.

The OT is a question..not a statement. What we do know is that all justice systems make mistakes...the question is do they all accept it....if Portugal has no cases of miscarriages of justice then it would be a fair assumption that something is not quite right

[Eleanor]

A Portuguese Poster did once state that if someone is charged in Portugal then it's a fair assumption that they are guilty because the case is watertight before they get to Court.
Sorry, I can't remember who said that.

But they have all fought hard to convince everyone that Amaral was definitely Not Guilty.  So was he stitched up?

[Alice Purjorick]

I haven't said the problem is systemic...I have asked the question...you really are not reading the posts properly and keep drawing the wrong conclusions.

The OT is a question..not a statement. What we do know is that all justice systems make mistakes...the question is do they all accept it....if Portugal has no cases of miscarriages of justice then it would be a fair assumption that something is not quite right

a) As by your own admission you have not said the problem is systemic then presumably you agree it isn't systemic? In which case you have to accept that the Cipriano case if ultimately proven to be a case of miscarriage of justice was a rarity not attributable to the system.
b) Or the system is so good there are few if any miscarriages of justice.
Back to square one.

[Mr Gray]

a) As by your own admission you have not said the problem is systemic then presumably you agree it isn't systemic? In which case you have to accept that the Cipriano case if ultimately proven to be a case of miscarriage of justice was a rarity not attributable to the system.
b) Or the system is so good there are few if any miscarriages of justice.
Back to square one.

It doesn't have to be either...neither black nor white...the questionis what shade of gray it is and we don't have enough information to know. The cipriano case looks very dark

[Alice Purjorick]

It doesn't have to be either...neither black nor white...the questionis what shade of gray it is and we don't have enough information to know. The cipriano case looks very dark

Well sir let me try to establish what is now being said:
There is insufficient data available to arrive at an informed opinion vis a vis the Portuguese legal system being in anyway deficient or worse than any other.
There are in your opinion questions to be posed regarding the Cipriano case, but in Portugal no one including the defendants lawyers has pursued the matter for what ever reason.
That doesn't seem to be particularly damning.
In the general context of these matters it is what might be described as "pretty bloody average". Much like everywhere
else that is "democratic".

[Mr Gray]

Well sir let me try to establish what is now being said:
There is insufficient data available to arrive at an informed opinion vis a vis the Portuguese legal system being in anyway deficient or worse than any other.
There are in your opinion questions to be posed regarding the Cipriano case, but in Portugal no one including the defendants lawyers has pursued the matter for what ever reason.
That doesn't seem to be particularly damning.
In the general context of these matters it is what might be described as "pretty bloody average". Much like everywhere
else that is "democratic".

You have missed out the most important point...look at the OT....extremely damning.

[Alice Purjorick]

You have missed out the most important point...look at the OT....extremely damning.

How so the most important point?
I repeat: if all this damning evidence is as plain as a pikestaff and grounds for overturning the conviction why has there been no upheld appeal?  Given you have already conceded that the Portuguese legal system is neither better nor worse than our own, collusion and corruption can reasonably be eliminated.
It seems to me she was a nasty convicted, liar of a murderess rather than some kind of Mother Theresa figure?

[Mr Gray]

How so the most important point?
I repeat: if all this damning evidence is as plain as a pikestaff and grounds for overturning the conviction why has there been no upheld appeal?  Given you have already conceded that the Portuguese legal system is neither better nor worse than our own, collusion and corruption can reasonably be eliminated.
It seems to me she was a nasty convicted, liar of a murderess rather than some kind of Mother Theresa figure?

[moderated]  ....you don't seem to understand what the thread is about....I have not conceded what you state...not in the slightest.... the question is how can Portugal have no miscarriages of justice....whats the explanation...try and stay on topic..as for cipriano...you can think what you like...but the fact is that the evidence was non existent

[Mr Gray]

The topic is...miscarriages of justice in Portugal...there doesn't seem to be any successful challenges as confirmed by Montclair, a Portuguese poster. This does seem more than odd and no one has been able to offer a reasonable explanation......so is there something inherently wrong with the Portuguese legal system....it's starting to look as though there is. No wonder Kate and Gerry needed to get out fast.

[Angelo222]

[moderated]  ....you don't seem to understand what the thread is about....I have not conceded what you state...not in the slightest.... the question is how can Portugal have no miscarriages of justice....whats the explanation...try and stay on topic..as for cipriano...you can think what you like...but the fact is that the evidence was non existent

Two confessions will do just fine in my book any day. 

[Mr Gray]

Two confessions will do just fine in my book any day.

you sound like something from the Spanish inquisition...justice has moved on for some

[Alice Purjorick]

Two confessions will do just fine in my book any day.

Especially my dear sir in a judicial system where the judge has the power to not consider a confession if he feels its was not valid for any reason whatever an there is no evidence to support the confession.