The Pedras Brancas building and Smithman's route.

[Anna]

"On the days right after the disappearance of Madeleine, a muffled cry that came from that location raised suspicions"
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html
Very interesting.
"On the days right after" implies that this muffled cry was not on the the night of the 3rd, but on another night very soon after.
The resulting PJ search was "on Saturday, around half past midnight".
This indicates that the "muffled cry" was most likely heard at about midnight on the night of Saturday 5th.

It sounds to me like it was reported on the days...Right after These people dont like to involve the police and some would not know about Maddie until friday. The police were working full out on what they considered important and probably were late getting around that building to this lady. There was also an abandoned villa nearby...was there not?

Silvia lives at the apartment block 'Pedras Brancas', which was inspected by the Policia Judiciaria (PJ). On the days right after the disappearance of Madeleine, a muffled cry that came from that location raised suspicions.

"On Saturday, around half past midnight, two inspectors from the Judiciaria asked to enter my home. My daughter was four months old back then. They looked at her often, they walked around the bathroom, the kitchen, they even peeked into the laundry basket", she recalls. The reports follow one another on the same subject, because on that night the PJ visited other homes, leaving the inhabitants restless and disturbed. "We didn't want to risk someone watching us talking to the PJ, like it happened with Luis, Robert Murat's friend. After the police talked to him, he never got himself another pool to clean", Silvia remembers.

[pegasus]

Yes Pegasus, I too believe that the Man who was dismissed by SC and the Smith sighting are innocent Dads, but not so sure that Jane didnt see the person responsible for Maddie's disappearance.

That would be a big insult to Mr R as it would imply he didn't bother to ask the innocent creche dad "did you ever walk east across that exact T-junction carrying your daughter?". To imagine that Mr R would fail to ask that patently obvious and absolutely necessary question seems unlikely IMO. But on the other hand I understand people find it odd that the exact junction is not mentioned in the SY announcement.

[Anna]

That would be a big insult to Mr R as it would imply he didn't bother to ask the innocent creche dad "did you ever walk east across that exact T-junction carrying your daughter?". To imagine that Mr R would fail to ask that patently obvious and absolutely necessary question seems unlikely IMO. But on the other hand I understand people find it odd that the exact junction is not mentioned in the SY announcement.

I didnt say that it was crechman who was seen by the smiths. I think that the crechman who came forward and was dismissed as an abductor, may not have been the man that JT saw.

[pegasus]

It sounds to me like it was reported on the days...Right after These people dont like to involve the police and some would not know about Maddie until friday. The police were working full out on what they considered important and probably were late getting around that building to this lady. There was also an abandoned villa nearby...was there not?

Silvia lives at the apartment block 'Pedras Brancas', which was inspected by the Policia Judiciaria (PJ). On the days right after the disappearance of Madeleine, a muffled cry that came from that location raised suspicions.

"On Saturday, around half past midnight, two inspectors from the Judiciaria asked to enter my home. My daughter was four months old back then. They looked at her often, they walked around the bathroom, the kitchen, they even peeked into the laundry basket", she recalls. The reports follow one another on the same subject, because on that night the PJ visited other homes, leaving the inhabitants restless and disturbed. "We didn't want to risk someone watching us talking to the PJ, like it happened with Luis, Robert Murat's friend. After the police talked to him, he never got himself another pool to clean", Silvia remembers.

The article does IMO indicate that the noise was heard somtime on the night of Sat 5th (not on the night of Thu 3rd). However I agree with your point that if the PJ checked the whole building then it might have taken a bit more than 30 minutes so it is possible the PJ arrived there earlier than midnight, and took more than 30mins to get as far as this lady's apartment at half past midnight, so yes it is possible the noise was heard a little earlier than midnight.

[pegasus]

I didnt say that it was crechman who was seen by the smiths. I think that the crechman who came forward and was dismissed as an abductor, may not have been the man that JT saw.

Yes that depends on whether or not Mr R showed his innocent crechedad a map and asked him the necessary question "did you walk across this exact T junction where JT saw a man with child". Unfortunatly the SY release does not state whether that essential exact geographical question was asked or not.

[Anna]

Yes that depends on whether or not Mr R showed his innocent crechedad a map and asked him the necessary question "did you walk across this exact T junction where JT saw a man with child". Unfortunatly the SY release does not state whether that essential exact geographical question was asked or not.

Sorry, I misunderstood you.
He was going in the wrong direction to have been coming from the Creche. There are maps and all sorts where this would have been seen, so I cannot understand why they believe that it was a creche dad.
There is however a possibility that he had to go in the direction of 5A for some reason, before going home in the direction a man was seen by JT of course.

[sadie]

The thing is though Sadie, the Google images showing the missing fence panels are dated August 2009 so we have no way of knowing what the fencing was like in May 2007. Also there is no way of knowing what cars were parked after dark in the area you refer to.

I have altered the map as per your post above.

Thank you John.  That is a great deal better and although the bottom part is not quite as I describe it, I will not trouble you to change anything more.  BTW, I regressed GE to the image dated 6/22/2007, which is only 8 weeks after Madeleine went.  This image was photographed on a sunny day and there were strong shadows.   

I used the strong shadows and zoomed right in.  Most of the wasteland was fully enclosed by a high fence as indicated by the shadows, but the two places that I believe Smithman may have enterd and left the wasteland had no shadows, so NO fence in either place.

For anyone who is interested.  You will see the road Rua Ema Vieira Alvernaz to the SW of the wasteland, well there is a fence gap there right by the "V" of that road name .... I thought it likely that he would have exited the wasteland there and gone straight across the road at the north side of the ?toilet block and thru the gap there.

Also likely partially hidden himself amongst the parked cars to the west of LuzTor as he passed by.
[LuzTor apartment block is the massive red roofed building in the lower middle of the image]. 

The Staff Quarters [Pedras Brancas Building] is the fairly large red roofed building partly cut off on the lower LH edge of the image and passed by the red route.

Incedenatally Matt Fazackerleys villa is immediately opposite the triangular green grassed area and immediately adjacent to the word "Martins" in the Rua Dr F Gentil Martins  (middle - upper RH of image).  The blue route goes past Fazackerleys back gate.


Apart from the very first bit of the route that had to go past homes, I tried to take Smithman down dark alleyways and never in front of houses or along roads unless hidden somewhat by parked cars.  I think I suceeded.


Amarals route in red was my original route, but having seen how fenced in it is for substantial distances I wonder if Smithman would have preferred a route where he was not potentially trapped ... hence my alternative route.   

I think either route could have been used.  There are other alternatives but I think either Amarals red route or my recent blue route are the most likely

[sadie]

A good hypothesis that would have him exiting the parking area at the small pathway as suggested by Sadie.

From that, is it your opinion he is a local or do you think he might be the crèche dad?

I endorse that, a good hpothesis Pegasus, the car parking and walking home is a distinct possibility.

 ..... but, Brietta,  I doubt he is crechman.  Too far off route for him and walking in completely the wrong direction.



In fact I think that the crech is exclusively for the children of OC guests?



The Smiths sightings are well to the west of Rua Primieira Maio.   
And as far as I can find there are no OC properties west of Rua Primiera Maio[ the north - south main road ] ... so he couldn't have come from OC crech imo.


Pegasus' idea about his having parked his car and was walking home is a possibility tho.   

But what sort of parent carrying his child [and emblazoned all over the media], would NOT have come forward to be ruled out in such a case?   Surely with a little girl of his own, there would be some empathy and a wish to help ?


I am inclined to think that Smithman was the abductor, or an acomplice, and was carrying Madeleine

[Brietta]

I endorse that, a good hpothesis Pegasus, the car parking and walking home is a distinct possibility.

 ..... but, Brietta,  I doubt he is crechman.  Too far off route for him and walking in completely the wrong direction.



In fact I think that the crech is exclusively for the children of OC guests?



The Smiths sightings are well to the west of Rua Primieira Maio.   
And as far as I can find there are no OC properties west of Rua Primiera Maio[ the north - south main road ] ... so he couldn't have come from OC crech imo.


Pegasus' idea about his having parked his car and was walking home is a possibility tho.   

But what sort of parent carrying his child [and emblazoned all over the media], would NOT have come forward to be ruled out in such a case?   Surely with a little girl of his own, there would be some empathy and a wish to help ?


I am inclined to think that Smithman was the abductor, or an acomplice, and was carrying Madeleine

I think you are correct that the crèche was exclusive to MW guests, Sadie, so he could not have been coming from there if there is no holiday accommodation in that location.

Pegasus’ idea is a fair possibility; if the abduction was planned I think there would have been a getaway vehicle parked in close proximity; if the original intention had been to burgle, I think the same would apply.

I still swing towards Jane’s sighting being the abductor as I am not too sure the language used by the DCI firmly ruled him out; but logic dictates that Smithman is a more probable culprit.

Pegasus’ idea about parking the vehicle is a good one because if he used a vehicle the child would not be visible to a casual viewer and it would be much safer than walking that distance carrying her.

In the off peak period he could have hoped to manage his journey without being seen, and that almost happened.

[pegasus]

My idea that  smithman parked just north of the sighting then walked to home just south of sighting, is based on looking at aerial photos and seeing that parking is scarce just south of sighting, but plentiful just north of sighting.

For clarity, I am proposing this idea in the context of a completely innocent smithman.
It does not work for a smithman who is an abductor or concealor - it works only for an innocent smithman.

As for why he has not come forward, I already pointed out the high likelyhood he is a non-speaker of the foreign language english (this is why he did not respond to the friendly greeting made in that foreign language).
AFAIK no TV or newspaper or poster appeal has ever been made in portugal in portuguese language which states the sighting location and time and asks the man to come forward.

[pegasus]

The PJ when typing up mwseasonal employee statements in some cases did type actual local address and in other cases just typed the vague "in accomodation provided by employer" or the even vaguer "unknown". BTW now even these non-addresses are blanked out on the PDFs on the internet.  However it can be worked out indirectly from statements that some (not all) lived here, the clue is the colours.

[Brietta]

My idea that  smithman parked just north of the sighting then walked to home just south of sighting, is based on looking at aerial photos and seeing that parking is scarce just south of sighting, but plentiful just north of sighting.

For clarity, I am proposing this idea in the context of a completely innocent smithman.
It does not work for a smithman who is an abductor or concealor - it works only for an innocent smithman.

As for why he has not come forward, I already pointed out the high likelyhood he is a non-speaker of the foreign language english (this is why he did not respond to the friendly greeting made in that foreign language).
AFAIK no TV or newspaper or poster appeal has ever been made in portugal in portuguese language which states the sighting location and time and asks the man to come forward.

I think you made it clear in your original post that you referred to an innocent person, pegasus, I hope you don’t think that I was trying to misrepresent you.
It is a bit of a mystery why this person has not come forward; we had the same concerns about Tannerman, but it now appears he had come forward at the time and thought that was that. 

[pathfinder73]

Tannerman is Crecheman. The yard are correct. Smithman is the wanted man.

JT Rog
 
4078    “If you had have thought that was Madeleine at the time you would have said?”
Reply    “Well, yeah, if I’d have thought, yeah, you know, if I’d have seen it was Madeleine you’d have, you know, I’m not going to go ‘Oh there goes Madeleine’, you know, I would have shouted, but.  But, yeah, I know the Police think I’m a sympathetic witness and whatever, but I don’t know what I can do to”.
 
4078    “And what colours?”
Reply    “Dark colours, but again it was, I think it was quite dark, so dark, sort of darkish jacket but then a more, a lighter trouser but a horrible colour, again this is, sort of a yellowy dark browny, horrible, but not, not a nice colour trousers, but then I wonder whether that was the lights making them look, making them look more of a sort of a mustard, it wasn’t mustard because that’s too bright, but it was just like a, as I say they weren’t nice, they weren’t the sort of clothes I’d expect somebody on a MARK WARNER holiday to, they was, I can’t think of the material, I tried to describe this before, but sort of a cottony material but baggy”.
 
4078    “Okay.  And his build?”
Reply    “Medium, well sort of just normal build.  As I say, I think the clothes were quite baggy, so I think they made him look more bigger than he probably was, but.  And also he would have been, his shoulders would have been out, you know, sort of.  So, I think, erm, yeah, medium’ish, a medium’ish build”.
 
4078    “Is there anything else about the man that you can remember now?”
Reply    “No, I mean, I would be so worried now about things that are put into my, I think the only two things that I’m still absolutely adamant on is a lot of hair, sort of a lot of thick, thick hair and sort of dark and baggy, well not, ill fitting clothes I think is the sort of, you know, sort of is the two things that still, I mean obviously I get this image in my head all the time and they are the two things that are still, are still, are still there”.
 
4078    “I know this seems like an obvious question, which I think I know the answer to, because I’ve seen the artist’s impression, did you see the man’s face?”
Reply    “No, no, not, no, I mean, just the hair, well not, not that I could remember to give details, give details to”.
 
4078    “So you didn’t notice any car headlights or noises from cars?”
Reply    “No, no, because I think, you know, if I’d heard sort of a car screech off quickly at that point, I probably would have, would have taken notice I think”.

4078    “And later on did you think it was significant?”
Reply    “It was a, yeah, it was sort of came as soon as, as soon as they said that came, buff, straight.  As soon as I’d seen it there it was forgotten and then, buff, as soon as Rachael said”.

[pegasus]

But pathfinder do you ever look at other cases?
Is there even a single case which matches your scenario, in which transport was by unconcealed carrying in arms?

[pathfinder73]

But pathfinder do you ever look at other cases?
Is there even a single case which matches your scenario, in which transport was by unconcealed carrying in arms?

No I don't review other cases because every case is different. At home the man could use a car to quickly move her away. On holiday that option was not possible for an unforeseen event  so he was seen carrying her quickly towards the beach/rocks where it's dark and safe from prying eyes. He knew a good safe spot there to temporarily hide her. If found a smelly fat man can take the rap! Then a before daylight move to the cliff face (5-6am). You have a few other options - bin, hole, garage etc. But with somebody looking shifty and possibly checking the cliff face days later this theory (one of mine) is worth investigating.

Could be temporarily hidden at 10:05 in this area - drain pipe on left nearly hidden. I would take the dogs to this area and sniff under every rock/hole/bush.