What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?

[John]

Carana raises an excellent point on another thread and rightly asks what evidence would one reasonably expect to find in an abduction?

Evidence of an abduction can include the following:

* A missing person.
* Stolen property.
* A break-in or forced entry.
* Unusual footprints including soiling on sills/floors/carpets.
* Persons acting suspiciously nearby.
* A ransom demand.
* Sightings of the missing person.

Please feel free to add to the list and discuss.

[pathfinder73]

Glove marks.

TECHNICAL FAULTS

Inside the apartment, police forensic specialists proceed to lift finger and palm prints, a job that is preferably carried out during daylight hours. Others look for traces of blood, samples of fibres and hair. We notice with dismay that one of the technicians, who is working on the outside of the McCann children's bedroom window is not using the regulation suit, thus risking contaminating possible clues. These images of negligence start to circulate world-wide; this isn't, however, the usual behaviour of police judiciary technicians.

It's obvious that no one has broken in and the lock has not been forced. No prints are lifted that are likely to belong to an unknown person, nor the slightest trace of gloves which could have been worn by a hypothetical abductor. In the middle of this desert of clues, two prints are perfectly easily found: the very distinct mark of a palm print on the balcony window at the rear of the apartment, and a clearly visible one of fingers on the window pane of Madeleine's bedroom. The excellent quality of the palm print seemed suspicious to us. Later, analyses confirm our suspicions: it belonged to one of the officers who were present the previous night. (TOTL)

[Angelo222]

Parental behaviour

In the case of a child abduction the attitude and behaviour of the parents can be evidence and a pointer as to how genuine the claimed abduction might be.  Police should not be influenced by the scenes which greet them but should step back and consider all possibilities.

[Mr Gray]

Parental behaviour

In the case of a child abduction the attitude and behaviour of the parents can be evidence and a pointer as to how genuine the claimed abduction might be.  Police should not be influenced by the scenes which greet them but should step back and consider all possibilities.

Very fair point... absolutely spot on.....SY seem to have concluded that the parents behaviour in this case matches abduction and have ruled out parental involvement....

Perhaps someone could let us know how often..the two biological parents...with no history of abuse....with no history of psychiatric problems are responsible in this sort of case

[Alice Purjorick]

Very fair point... absolutely spot on.....SY seem to have concluded that the parents behaviour in this case matches abduction and have ruled out parental involvement....

Perhaps someone could let us know how often..the two biological parents...with no history of abuse....with no history of psychiatric problems are responsible in this sort of case

A nice little research project for you; why don't you take it on?

[Mr Gray]

A nice little research project for you; why don't you take it on?

because I pretty well know the answer

[xtina]

where would the mccs have got the print out.......it seems they already had the prints...[probably just in case maddie was abducted eh].....

something you wouldn't have expected to be there...IMO ...they seemed very organised ..considering there daughter was missing ...and anything could be happening to her......







He found the parents to be nervous and anxious, he did not see any tears from either of them although they produced noises identical to crying. He did not feel that this was an abduction, although this was the line indicated by the father.
 
Processos, Volume 12, Page 231
 
Snippet From the Statement by Nelson Filipe Pacheco de Costa about the events of the night of 3rd May.
 
GNR Officer
 
One of the group contacted Sky News and the Embassy that night. He does not know if the parents made the call.
 
Upon leaving the apartment he saw various photographs of the little girl printed on normal A4 paper which had been printed at the reception as well as other photos printed on 10 x 15 photographic poster paper which could not have printed at the reception. This seemed unusual to him and he later confirmed that they could not have been printed at the reception.

[Mr Gray]

Oft quoted is that when children are the victims of crime or abuse the perps are most likely to be their parents...family member ...friend of family..whilst tis is true it is interesting to note the definition of parent...

The term 'parent' is defined as a biological parent, step parent, adopted parent of the victim or the resident or non resident partner of the victim's parent

So the statistics are skewed by mom's new boyfriend who happens to have a serious drug problem...but for these statistics he is classed as a parent

[xtina]

Oft quoted is that when children are the victims of crime or abuse the perps are most likely to be their parents...family member ...friend of family..whilst tis is true it is interesting to note the definition of parent...

The term 'parent' is defined as a biological parent, step parent, adopted parent of the victim or the resident or non resident partner of the victim's parent

So the statistics are skewed by mom's new boyfriend who happens to have a serious drug problem...but for these statistics he is classed as a parent

seems like mothers are are the main ones






Over the course of his 40-year career, Resnick has worked on 40 to 60 cases involving parents who killed their children. Although he cannot offer a mental diagnosis or legal opinion in the Powers’ case, he can discuss the motivations of parents who kill and what we know about them. About 250 to 300 children are murdered by their parents each year.
 
Does this seem to be a typical case of a mother who kills her children?
 
It’s aytpical. Younger children are much more likely to be killed than teenagers. If a child is killed for being “mouthy,” the remark that came out here, that’s more likely to lead to fatal battering. [Usually, in such cases,] a 3-to-5-year-old is thrown against a wall in an overzealous attempt at discipline and dies — as opposed to [a parent] planning to kill and shooting them with a gun.
 
You have identified five main circumstances in which parents kill their children.
 
The first is “altruistic.” The classic case is the mother who plans to take her own life and believes that the children are better off in heaven with her. Number Two is the case in which the parent is acutely psychotic. The third type is fatal battering [as described above]. The fourth is [to get rid of] an unwanted baby, for example an infant born out of wedlock. The final category is spousal revenge, [in which a parent kills the children to hurt the partner], typically after infidelity.

[Mr Gray]

seems like mothers are are the main ones






Over the course of his 40-year career, Resnick has worked on 40 to 60 cases involving parents who killed their children. Although he cannot offer a mental diagnosis or legal opinion in the Powers’ case, he can discuss the motivations of parents who kill and what we know about them. About 250 to 300 children are murdered by their parents each year.
 
Does this seem to be a typical case of a mother who kills her children?
 
It’s aytpical. Younger children are much more likely to be killed than teenagers. If a child is killed for being “mouthy,” the remark that came out here, that’s more likely to lead to fatal battering. [Usually, in such cases,] a 3-to-5-year-old is thrown against a wall in an overzealous attempt at discipline and dies — as opposed to [a parent] planning to kill and shooting them with a gun.
 
You have identified five main circumstances in which parents kill their children.
 
The first is “altruistic.” The classic case is the mother who plans to take her own life and believes that the children are better off in heaven with her. Number Two is the case in which the parent is acutely psychotic. The third type is fatal battering [as described above]. The fourth is [to get rid of] an unwanted baby, for example an infant born out of wedlock. The final category is spousal revenge, [in which a parent kills the children to hurt the partner], typically after infidelity.

interesting article. Al five either exhibit psychotic behaviour or  a broken relationship. I'm sure the police looked at the McCanns and didn't see any reason why they would hurt maddie

[Anna]

where would the mccs have got the print out.......it seems they already had the prints...[probably just in case maddie was abducted eh].....

something you wouldn't have expected to be there...IMO ...they seemed very organised ..considering there daughter was missing ...and anything could be happening to her......







He found the parents to be nervous and anxious, he did not see any tears from either of them although they produced noises identical to crying. He did not feel that this was an abduction, although this was the line indicated by the father.
 
Processos, Volume 12, Page 231
 
Snippet From the Statement by Nelson Filipe Pacheco de Costa about the events of the night of 3rd May.
 
GNR Officer
 
One of the group contacted Sky News and the Embassy that night. He does not know if the parents made the call.
 
Upon leaving the apartment he saw various photographs of the little girl printed on normal A4 paper which had been printed at the reception as well as other photos printed on 10 x 15 photographic poster paper which could not have printed at the reception. This seemed unusual to him and he later confirmed that they could not have been printed at the reception.

Everyone carried photos of their family back then.....Postcard size


the questions that were asked from the missing person's family members, and the answers that were given. She remembers that Gerry gave the GNR Commander several photographs of the missing person. These were postcard-type photographs, taking their size and shape into account. They were actually photographs of the size and shape of a postcard, and they seemed to be all similar to her.http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm

[bros]

Carana raises an excellent point on another thread and rightly asks what evidence would one reasonably expect to find in an abduction?

Evidence of an abduction can include the following:

* A missing person.
* Stolen property.
* A break-in or forced entry.
* Unusual footprints including soiling on sills/floors/carpets.
* Persons acting suspiciously nearby.
* A ransom demand.
* Sightings of the missing person.

Please feel free to add to the list and discuss.

How about: Preplanned organization to commit a crime, this is proof of abduction is in it.  Police here have used deductive method after isolating a group of people.  And seems they have hit the nail. So yes there will be other evidences but the breakthrough was made with the above mentioned method a lot of hard work and plenty of people. 

[stephen25000]

How about: Preplanned organization to commit a crime, this is proof of abduction is in it.  Police here have used deductive method after isolating a group of people.  And seems they have hit the nail. So yes there will be other evidences but the breakthrough was made with the above mentioned method a lot of hard work and plenty of people.

What have they found exactly, other than 'persons of interest'.

.............and that's it.

[Brietta]

First pointer to abduction could perhaps be considered to be a missing child. 

In Madeleine McCann’s case the protocols for dealing with such a situation were not put in place and inept gathering of forensic evidence meant the first samples taken yielded no results. 
Therefore any traces either of any person with a legitimate reason for being in the apartment or of an intruder were effectively eradicated.

This monumental failure is ignored by all except for a brief mention in Dr Amaral’s book where he mentions it in passing and notes the technician’s lack of protective clothing which we had seen in stills and videos anyway - images of which must have made professionals shudder - but which was obviously the least of the problems.

The forensic evidence having been effectively destroyed … we are then left with phone records and eye witness accounts for the days and hours prior to Madeleine’s disappearance … that NSY were able to build a case for reopening the inquiry based on the inadequacies of the scrutiny of hundreds of leads … speaks volumes.

I am sure there is also information held by the PJ and the Met not in the public domain which has led them to renew the investigation … the pity of it is that any perpetrator/s will be well warned … exactly what you want if you are the criminal … not so handy if you are law enforcement.

IMO only those who do not wish to see Madeleine’s case resolved are wilfully impeding progress, one has to wonder why. 

[stephen25000]

First pointer to abduction could perhaps be considered to be a missing child. 

In Madeleine McCann’s case the protocols for dealing with such a situation were not put in place and inept gathering of forensic evidence meant the first samples taken yielded no results. 
Therefore any traces either of any person with a legitimate reason for being in the apartment or of an intruder were effectively eradicated.

This monumental failure is ignored by all except for a brief mention in Dr Amaral’s book where he mentions it in passing and notes the technician’s lack of protective clothing which we had seen in stills and videos anyway - images of which must have made professionals shudder - but which was obviously the least of the problems.

The forensic evidence having been effectively destroyed … we are then left with phone records and eye witness accounts for the days and hours prior to Madeleine’s disappearance … that NSY were able to build a case for reopening the inquiry based on the inadequacies of the scrutiny of hundreds of leads … speaks volumes.

I am sure there is also information held by the PJ and the Met not in the public domain which has led them to renew the investigation … the pity of it is that any perpetrator/s will be well warned … exactly what you want if you are the criminal … not so handy if you are law enforcement.

IMO only those who do not wish to see Madeleine’s case resolved are wilfully impeding progress, one has to wonder why.

First pointer to a missing child can also be the child is dead.

The mccanns and party spoiled the crime scene.

If they believed Madeleine had been abducted , why search all over the apartment. makes no sense.

Why would a real investigation wanr any potential 'suspects' they were after them.

Makes no sense, does it ?