Author Topic: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?  (Read 33297 times)

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Offline Brietta

Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2014, 10:13:31 AM »
First pointer to a missing child can also be the child is dead.

The mccanns and party spoiled the crime scene.

If they believed Madeleine had been abducted , why search all over the apartment. makes no sense.

Why would a real investigation wanr any potential 'suspects' they were after them.

Makes no sense, does it ?

First pointer to a missing child can also be the child is dead.
Nonsense … if the child is found dead … s\he is by definition no longer missing; in the lack of the sad discovery of a body in Madeleine McCann’s disappearance she is still a missing child and not a dead one however much that may fit your narrative.

The mccanns and party spoiled the crime scene.
Nonsense ... The police failed to secure the crime scene … that is what police do … not the victims.

If they believed Madeleine had been abducted , why search all over the apartment. makes no sense.
Nonsense ... it makes sense in the first instance to ensure the child … living or dead … is not in the immediate vicinity before calling the authorities … but of course, you already know that because it has been so stated umpteenth times.

Why would a real investigation wanr any potential 'suspects' they were after them.
No choice … if the ‘real’ investigation had been on UK soil – no problem.  Surprised you don’t know it is under Portuguese jurisdiction.

Makes no sense, does it ?
Allowing the harvesting of the initial and all important forensics to be carried out by amateurs who were not up to the job sure don’t make sense to me … must have made sense to someone though.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Mr Justice K

Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2014, 01:49:13 PM »
Lots of things don't make sense in this case but the parents own actions are what interests me.  The last people known to have seen the child will always come under scrutiny from the moment the police are involved.   The detectives job is to examine every possible scenario and that includes looking at the parents and their associates. The McCanns reacted badly to this scrutiny and appeared to resent the police because of it. As GP's they would and should have known that they would have been the first to be investigated so why the huge hullabaloo?
Law without justice is a wound without a cure.  (William Scott Downey)

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2014, 02:07:03 PM »
Lots of things don't make sense in this case but the parents own actions are what interests me.  The last people known to have seen the child will always come under scrutiny from the moment the police are involved.   The detectives job is to examine every possible scenario and that includes looking at the parents and their associates. The McCanns reacted badly to this scrutiny and appeared to resent the police because of it. As GP's they would and should have known that they would have been the first to be investigated so why the huge hullabaloo?
what huge hullabaloo are you referring to?

Offline slartibartfast

Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2014, 02:22:47 PM »
 *&*%£
what huge hullabaloo are you referring to?

F****** T*****!
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline xtina

Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2014, 02:24:50 PM »
[quote removed]


then all the more reason to put people straight  ....like they should all have to answer questions they did not answer ....and do a reconstruction .a lie detector test..to back what they say up ...although IMO it would be near on  impossible to get them to do it.....

IMO that would be the only way to stop would stop comments like this...

http://www.change.org/p/david-cameron-uk-pm-and-pedro-passos-coelho-call-in-forensic-accountants-to-look-into-the-madeleine-mccann-fund-have-every-single-person-associated-with-this-case-reinterviewed
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 11:35:23 AM by Mr Moderator »
Always listen to both sides of the story before you judge.

The first storyteller you will always find has modified the story, for there benefit BE WISE.

Offline John

Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2014, 08:13:44 PM »
Could we keep on topic please guys and gals. TY   8((()*/
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Mr Justice K

Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2014, 08:24:46 PM »
what huge hullabaloo are you referring to?

Apologies for getting sidetracked Mr Editor.  To respond to Mr Jones, the hullabaloo I referred to earlier was the comments they made about the Portuguese investigation team and in particular Senor Paiva whose job was in liaising between the parents and the police. As soon as he was perceived as the enemy the entire equilibrium of the relationship changed.
   
Law without justice is a wound without a cure.  (William Scott Downey)

Offline sadie

Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2014, 09:32:29 PM »
Apologies for getting sidetracked Mr Editor.  To respond to Mr Jones, the hullabaloo I referred to earlier was the comments they made about the Portuguese investigation team and in particular Senor Paiva whose job was in liaising between the parents and the police. As soon as he was perceived as the enemy the entire equilibrium of the relationship changed.
 
As you would expect after he cut Kate at the police station.  Aparantly friend one minute and obvious enemy immediately afterwatds

Offline a.baker

Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2014, 12:07:50 AM »
Why didn't Kate answer those questions. Her solicitor advised her not to so as not to incriminate herself. How can you possibly incriminate yourself if you are telling the truth? GM answered the questions. Many believe this was decided between the McCannn's so that they couldn't then contradict each others version of events.

Offline sadie

Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2014, 12:17:42 AM »
Why didn't Kate answer those questions. Her solicitor advised her not to so as not to incriminate herself. How can you possibly incriminate yourself if you are telling the truth? GM answered the questions. Many believe this was decided between the McCannn's so that they couldn't then contradict each others version of events.
Are you forgetting what happened to Leonor Cipriano, Joao and Michael Cook ?

Offline Anna

Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2014, 12:20:44 AM »
Why didn't Kate answer those questions. Her solicitor advised her not to so as not to incriminate herself. How can you possibly incriminate yourself if you are telling the truth? GM answered the questions. Many believe this was decided between the McCannn's so that they couldn't then contradict each others version of events.

Its a shame really, Amanda, that so many people "Believe" certain things, without any truth to back it up. If my lawyer told me to say nothing, then thats what I would do, what would you do?
 GM didnt have to answer, but he chose too.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2014, 12:16:03 PM »
I've added your suggested indicators in bold and my comments in regular type. My comments are not necessarily case-specific. They are mostly generic, with some case-specific reflections.

Carana raises an excellent point on another thread and rightly asks what evidence would one reasonably expect to find in an abduction?

Evidence of an abduction can include the following:

* A missing person.
Yes, but this might be classified as an indicator as opposed to evidence. It doesn't exclude other possibilities.

* Stolen property.
Not sure about that one. People are sometimes briefly abducted or simply mugged in order to steal jewellery, an expensive phone or what not... but would one expect property to be missing if an abduction is the primary objective?

* A break-in or forced entry.
Possibly, although that wouldn't exclude entering via the unlocked door or the use of a duplicate key.

* Unusual footprints including soiling on sills/floors/carpets.
There were footprints, but they were unuseable, in part to due to contamination by fingerprint powder. The search for fingerprints was limited.

* Persons acting suspiciously nearby.
There were, whether they are relevant or not remains to be seen.

* A ransom demand.
In a kidnapping.

* Sightings of the missing person. Tannerman (seemingly now excluded) and Smithman who doesn't appear to have been identified yet. It's not clear if the couple with a child near the Lagos marina / station was ever identified.

Despite the publicity, her appearance could have been changed and with time she wouldn't resemble the little girl in the photos we all remember. The fleck in her eye wouldn't stand out at a distance and sunglasses or slightly tinted glasses would cover that up in public.

Even though there were numerous  presumably false "sightings", once the leaks of suspicions about the parents, and then Amaral's book insisting that she was dead and that the parents were involved, how many people seriously continued to remain vigilant?

Please feel free to add to the list and discuss.

Adding a few of my own to the list.

* Unexplained fibres or hairs.
There are hairs that have still not been identified. A sweep for hairs / fibres doesn't appear to have taken place throughout the flat. She could have been taken while in the bathroom or in her parents' bedroom, for example.

* Unexplained disturbance of objects.
The only thing that seems unexplained is the door apparently being found further open than usual, although a breeze when one or other people walked in / out or a child walking out could possibly explain that.

* Abandoned belongings of the person.
Clothes, bag, phone, jewellery, bike (for an adult or older child). Only pyjamas would apply in this case and none seem to have been recovered. However, the search of bins took place quite some time after with only a couple of municipal employees to attempt to cover the totality in a very short space of time. If the PJs had been made difficult to recognise, e.g. by burning or shredding, and mixed in with household rubbish, it seems unlikely that they would have been found. The search was, by all accounts, not a fingertip forensic search. PJs could also be weighted down and thrown down a well or in the sea or dumped elsewhere anyway.

* CCTV.
This can often shed light in areas that have CCTV coverage and presumed trajectories / timings / suspected vehicles / unexplained presence in certain areas can be checked. CCTV isn't common in PT, let alone in sleepy villages. The PJ didn't seem to have checked existing security cameras thoroughly as a priority. The only one that might have shown something significant in the vicinity got wiped. The one checked in a nearby petrol station wasn't her. The one at the Paraiso café established the presence of the majority of the group at the time they'd stated, but nothing of direct significance.

A few others could be indicators:

* Unusual phone activity. This was partly checked at the time, but is now being investigated more thoroughly.

* Unfamiliar cars appearing to prowl or suddenly screech off.
No sudden screeching appears to have been noted. "Prowling" is subjective and could simply mean someone innocently searching for a parking spot.

* Family / professional situation.
No known history of familial abuse, complex family situations, desperate financial situations, mental illness, unwanted babies, known enemies in search of revenge, kidnapping for political or financial purposes, etc.

* Indicators related to previous crimes in the area.
- Numerous burglaries or attempted ones had taken place.

- Several assaults or attempted ones on other children had taken place in the area, some of which involved entry to the living space of the families involved, even when parents were there.

- The lack of resources to overhaul the judicial system, a potential lack of coordination between police forces and the absence of a sexual offenders and DNA database may mean that suspects are still out there, moving within PT or even in other European states, or could even be in jail for unrelated offences.

ETA:

* Cigarette butts on a balcony that could have been a potential vantage point. These don't appear to have been collected.



 
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 05:09:15 PM by Carana »

Offline Carana

Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2014, 12:19:34 PM »
What have they found exactly, other than 'persons of interest'.

.............and that's it.

Stephen, the subject of this topic is "What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?"

You are one of the main persons challenging others concerning evidence of an abduction, yet I don't seem to find any direct answer from you on this topic.

Offline Carana

Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2014, 12:30:25 PM »
where would the mccs have got the print out.......it seems they already had the prints...[probably just in case maddie was abducted eh].....

something you wouldn't have expected to be there...IMO ...they seemed very organised ..considering there daughter was missing ...and anything could be happening to her......







He found the parents to be nervous and anxious, he did not see any tears from either of them although they produced noises identical to crying. He did not feel that this was an abduction, although this was the line indicated by the father.
 
Processos, Volume 12, Page 231
 
Snippet From the Statement by Nelson Filipe Pacheco de Costa about the events of the night of 3rd May.
 
GNR Officer
 
One of the group contacted Sky News and the Embassy that night. He does not know if the parents made the call.
 
Upon leaving the apartment he saw various photographs of the little girl printed on normal A4 paper which had been printed at the reception as well as other photos printed on 10 x 15 photographic poster paper which could not have printed at the reception. This seemed unusual to him and he later confirmed that they could not have been printed at the reception.

Have you read the files? If so, I presume that you are aware of how they got printed.


Offline Carana

Re: What evidence would one expect to find in an ABDUCTION?
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2014, 12:36:45 PM »
The clearest evidence for abduction would be one in which a missing person alert is immediately issued, due to evidence of several witnesses, preferably with a snapshot of someone being stuffed into a car with evidence of a licence plate number and full descriptions.

How often does that happen?