Author Topic: The whooshing curtains, net curtains or both?  (Read 45734 times)

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Offline lordpookles

Re: The whooshing curtains, net curtains or both?
« Reply #105 on: November 03, 2014, 03:31:59 AM »
The only way to know is to test it. I think air escaping rapidly enough out of the chimney/vent to cause the door to slam seems unlikely. It's not like an open patio door where the air has a clear escape route. To exit via the chimney the air has go out then up and think the flow would be more gradual. Also vents/chimneys are built/designed if I'm not mistaken to manage airflow...

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: The whooshing curtains, net curtains or both?
« Reply #106 on: November 03, 2014, 01:30:32 PM »
However just to put things in perspective:
A chimney working on natural draft relies on temperature differential for it to work. At the point of emission (the top of the stack) where wind is a major factor the top will be designed to minimise the effect of the wind i.e to prevent blow back or creation of excessive draft.
A cooker hood commonly has an induced draft fan, some ducting, filters on the inlet and louvres on the outlet. So our wind has to provide a sufficiently low pressure to lift the louvres, overcome the friction in the ducting, filters and fan to draw enough air to create a hefty draft through the room that will move doors and whoosh curtains
So by inspection the idea of it being caused by draughts from chimneys and cooker hoods is rather flaky.
The "venturi effect" around the building is a different matter but will rely on the associated pressure differential and two apertures to create a draught. ie if the window is open another door or window needs to be opened to create the phenomenon. The curtains/doors if they move will move in a direction dependent on whether they are on the windward side of the building or the leeward side.
Well that dripped on a bit. But given the doors and curtains will remain in equilibrium until acted on by a force how do we create the conditions to generate a sufficiently large force ?. Chimneys and cooker hoods will not do it.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 05:01:24 PM by Mr Moderator »
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline sadie

Re: The whooshing curtains, net curtains or both?
« Reply #107 on: November 03, 2014, 05:47:26 PM »
So we still have the distinct possibility that

1)   one of the side windows in the living room was left open to cool the place down a bit after the heat of the day.  These windows are effectively at forst floor level so many people would consider it fine to leave then open

2)  The patio doors in Kate and Gerrys bedroom being left a little ajar.  Again to cool the place down.  I dont thinbk there was any air con.  and no balcony overhang to prevent the sun overheating the bedroom.  The parents bedroom faced due south, so with no prective over hang the sun would enter the room and it would get very hot.



We just dont know, if that were the case.  if either the sitting room window or the patio window were left open.

And we just dont know, maybe someone slipped out thru the parents bedroom patio windows as Kate was closing the Madeleines bedroom door?.  Simultaneously with a 20mph gust.

Remember,
Whilst the files are comprehensive, they dont cover every minute detail.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The whooshing curtains, net curtains or both?
« Reply #108 on: November 03, 2014, 06:35:14 PM »
The McCanns and Tapas group's prepared timeline, type-written and presented to the PJ on 10 May 2007

On this date, I attached to these official papers 3 computer printed pages, relating to the description of the events, that have been collectively prepared by the nine people of the group in question, that was delivered to this Police Officer by the British Liaison Official, before the start of re-questioning of those same people.
 
Portimão, 10 May 2007
INSPECTOR
M.P.

22.00: (approx): KM leaves table to check children in 5A. The patio gate is closed and the child gate is also probably closed. She enters through the closed patio entrance, with the curtains closed. She crosses the living area, and there is no noise from the children's bedroom. She is about to leave, when she notices the bedroom door was open (approximately 60 degrees).
She starts to close it and it slams. Considering the patio doors had caused a draft, she checks these doors but they are closed. KM returns to the bedroom and opens the door to check the children were not disturbed by the noise.
At this point, she notices that Madeleine is missing. She checks the other single bed in the room and also Kate and Gerry's beds. Then she double checks that Madeleine was not in her bedroom again. At this point she notices the curtains blowing forward with a gust of wind. She runs over, pulls open the curtains and notices the shutter was completely raised, and the windows pushed open to the left as far as possible.
She then completes a check of the bathroom, kitchen and wardrobes.
On failing to find Madeleine, she runs to the entrance of the restaurant, shouting from the path leading to the restaurant area raising the alarm that Madeleine was missing.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html

4 May

At around 10pm, the witness came to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.



Have you read Matt's 9:30 check? He didn't say he heard a noise or the twins rolling over. Another fine mess!

certainly the curtains were shut and everything was quiet.
 
00.29.11 4078 'So you weren't, just to clarify what you have said, you weren't conscious of any draught''
Reply 'Yeah'.
 
4078 'The curtains were drawn and weren't blowing around''
Reply 'Yeah'.

4078 'And the beach was fairly quiet''
Reply 'The beach was fairly quiet'.
 
4078 'Can you recall the pool and the Tapas''
Reply 'The pool and the Tapas were fairly quiet'.
 
4078 'What about in the evenings when you were going back to check on Grace, do you recall some of the other people around''
Reply 'No, there'd be rarely, rarely anybody about, maybe an occasional one person. Erm, tut, was he, was it the chap, whose name I can't remember, he had a child who was willing to be part of, or was being suggested for the interview, Jeremy, Jeremy or somebody''
 
00.43.49 4078 'Yeah'.
Reply 'Who had a child and I think I'd seen him around because I think their child didn't sleep particularly well and he may have been pushing or he might have been collecting from cr'he, but what day or what time, I don't really remember'.
 
4078 'How did you come to know Jeremy''
Reply 'It was a couple that we spoke to while we were on, Jeremy I think I spoke to on the coach, either on the coach or we already said something, you know, something when we were checking in, sort of that'd have been four o'clock in the morning or whenever it was, and there was, so I think I spoke to him on the coach or on the plane on the way over, definitely on the coach or on the plane on the way over, and sort of said hi every now and again, but didn't, erm, you know anything more than that really'.
 
4078 'And did you speak to him during the holiday''
Reply 'Yeah, just on odd occasions'.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 07:01:09 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: The whooshing curtains, net curtains or both?
« Reply #109 on: November 03, 2014, 06:55:50 PM »
The McCanns and Tapas group's prepared timeline, type-written and presented to the PJ on 10 May 2007

On this date, I attached to these official papers 3 computer printed pages, relating to the description of the events, that have been collectively prepared by the nine people of the group in question, that was delivered to this Police Officer by the British Liaison Official, before the start of re-questioning of those same people.
 
Portimão, 10 May 2007
INSPECTOR
M.P.

22.00: (approx): KM leaves table to check children in 5A. The patio gate is closed and the child gate is also probably closed. She enters through the closed patio entrance, with the curtains closed. She crosses the living area, and there is no noise from the children's bedroom. She is about to leave, when she notices the bedroom door was open (approximately 60 degrees).
She starts to close it and it slams. Considering the patio doors had caused a draft, she checks these doors but they are closed. KM returns to the bedroom and opens the door to check the children were not disturbed by the noise.
At this point, she notices that Madeleine is missing. She checks the other single bed in the room and also Kate and Gerry's beds. Then she double checks that Madeleine was not in her bedroom again. At this point she notices the curtains blowing forward with a gust of wind. She runs over, pulls open the curtains and notices the shutter was completely raised, and the windows pushed open to the left as far as possible.
She then completes a check of the bathroom, kitchen and wardrobes.
On failing to find Madeleine, she runs to the entrance of the restaurant, shouting from the path leading to the restaurant area raising the alarm that Madeleine was missing.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html

4 May

At around 10pm, the witness came to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.



I don't know if it is just me ... but I just don't bother to read the tomes you churn out ... mainly because I don't have time to second guess the message you are trying to impart.

By all means discuss your opinion on whooshing curtains and open windows using appropriate references to back up your argument.
As far as I am concerned blocks of quotations are just that ... blocks of quotations ... which add nothing to any discussion.

Just in my opinion.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The whooshing curtains, net curtains or both?
« Reply #110 on: November 03, 2014, 07:11:59 PM »
The fact is statements and recollections change. First statements don't connect to later ones so why was the information withheld? Curtains found open changed to she opened curtains. Door completely open to 60% open. Key to no key etc. Tannerman  ?>)()<




Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: The whooshing curtains, net curtains or both?
« Reply #111 on: November 03, 2014, 07:42:03 PM »
The fact is statements and recollections change. First statements don't connect to later ones so why was the information withheld? Curtains found open changed to she opened curtains. Door completely open to 60% open. Key to no key etc. Tannerman  ?>)()<

Thank you ... I hope I didn't offend you too much.  That is much more succinct.   
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The whooshing curtains, net curtains or both?
« Reply #112 on: November 03, 2014, 07:46:48 PM »
Thank you ... I hope I didn't offend you too much.  That is much more succinct.

You didn't offend me. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even if we disagree.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: The whooshing curtains, net curtains or both?
« Reply #113 on: November 03, 2014, 09:02:10 PM »
I am going back to that night-weather is reported to be calm-no gusting of wind.

Theory TM.: An intruder jemmies open the shutters-climbs into the bedroom- steals Maddie - climbs back out, not touching doors because there were no prints. NOW why did the door not slam, and curtains whoosh when wind was gushing the instant the window was opened?

Because that didn't happen. The shutters were not 'jemmied' and intruder did not climb in -steal Maddie then leave through that window carrying a child without leaving ANY DNA at all- no scuff marks nothing. unless,...No... Never happened that way at all.
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline sadie

Re: The whooshing curtains, net curtains or both?
« Reply #114 on: November 03, 2014, 11:59:08 PM »
I am going back to that night-weather is reported to be calm-no gusting of wind.
Theory TM.: An intruder jemmies open the shutters-climbs into the bedroom- steals Maddie - climbs back out, not touching doors because there were no prints. NOW why did the door not slam, and curtains whoosh when wind was gushing the instant the window was opened?

Because that didn't happen. The shutters were not 'jemmied' and intruder did not climb in -steal Maddie then leave through that window carrying a child without leaving ANY DNA at all- no scuff marks nothing. unless,...No... Never happened that way at all.
Where have you got this disinformation from about no gusting of wind?

It just isn't true

20mph gusts at 10 pm and the weather worsening.



I couldn't agree more.  No intruder climbed in thru that window, nor out.  He came in via the front door which was single locked.  Easy to open a door just using a key in the lock.  No need to handle the door at all.  So no finger prints.

Offline pegasus

Re: The whooshing curtains, net curtains or both?
« Reply #115 on: November 04, 2014, 01:58:02 AM »
...  No intruder climbed in thru that window, nor out...
Agreed Sadie, absolutely no intruder climbed in or out of that window.

If you were a burglar, thought everyone was out (adults at restaurant, kids at night creche) and opened the shutter and window from outside, then before climbing in you to your horror saw and heard that someone was not just in the apartment but in the very room you were about to climb in to, what would you do?


Online misty

Re: The whooshing curtains, net curtains or both?
« Reply #116 on: November 04, 2014, 02:26:29 AM »
If the shutters were up & the curtains open, why couldn't Kate immediately see Madeleine was  not present in her bed in the same way Gerry could apparently see Madeleine one hour earlier when the shutters were presumably down & the curtains closed? 

Offline pegasus

Re: The whooshing curtains, net curtains or both?
« Reply #117 on: November 04, 2014, 02:35:41 AM »
If the shutters were up & the curtains open, why couldn't Kate immediately see Madeleine was  not present in her bed in the same way Gerry could apparently see Madeleine one hour earlier when the shutters were presumably down & the curtains closed?
Very good question Misty.
This is the great thing about this forum, occaisionally someone comes up with something I had never thought of.
What was the visibility (light intensity and sources) in the exact conditions inside the room at 9.10pm?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 02:38:05 AM by pegasus »

Offline pegasus

Re: The whooshing curtains, net curtains or both?
« Reply #118 on: November 04, 2014, 03:24:25 AM »
It's quite simple.
What if some petty druggo burglar thinking everyone was out had started to try to get in via the only accessible window? (as they had done before at 5L 5G 4A - also IMO via the only accessible window).
What would almost inevitably have happened if the burglar, thinking no-one was in, before climbing in saw and heard there was someone in the room? The entire sequence of events is quite predictable, which way burglar goes, and (exactly opposite) which way child goes.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 03:47:35 AM by pegasus »

Online misty

Re: The whooshing curtains, net curtains or both?
« Reply #119 on: November 04, 2014, 03:39:15 AM »
Very good question Misty.
This is the great thing about this forum, occaisionally someone comes up with something I had never thought of.
What was the visibility (light intensity and sources) in the exact conditions inside the room at 9.10pm?

Whilst I still support the abduction scenario, it is my belief that Gerry never looked in the children's bedroom that night. He could no more tell you what Kate was wearing that night than he could describe the pyjamas any of the children were wearing - simply because it's a "man thing" to not notice details like that. I believe that is one of the main reasons the Exton report was deemed hypercritical of the McCanns, and the white lie extends the time frame of any abduction to anything from about 8.45pm onwards.
That is just my opinion, but I can see no other reason, apart from total fabrication, as to why Gerry could see a sleeping Madeleine but Kate couldn't make out anything in a room which should have had a better level of light.