Is Jeremy Bamber a psychopath?

[Joanne]

The blue forum is driving me mad-slowly with the great debate on Jeremy Bamber being a psychopath, so what is the definition of a psychopath?
PRIMARY PSYCHOPATHS do not respond to punishment, apprehension, stress, or disapproval.
SECONDARY PSYCHOPATHS are risk-takers, but are also more likely to be stress-reactive, worriers, and guilt-prone.
DISTEMPERED PSYCHOPATHS are the kind that seem to fly into a rage or frenzy more easily and more often than other subtypes.
CHARISMATIC PSYCHOPATHS are charming, attractive liars. They are usually gifted at some talent or another, and they use it to their advantage in manipulating others.
http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath_2.htm
(Thats quite a good report, I didn't want to c=p it all but it's worth reading)

Psychopathy Checklist, Revised (PCL-R) is the psycho-diagnostic tool most commonly used to assess psychopathy-:
Factor 1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"

Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
Callousness; lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
Factor 2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle".

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioral control
Lack of realistic long-term goals
Impulsivity
Irresponsibility
Juvenile delinquency
Early behavior problems
Revocation of conditional release
Traits not correlated with either factor

Promiscuous sexual behavior
Many short-term (marital) relationships
Criminal versatility
Acquired behavioural sociopathy/sociological conditioning (Item 21: a newly identified trait i.e., a person relying on sociological strategies and tricks to deceive)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist

Or narcissitic-:
Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity.
Symptoms of this disorder may include, but are not limited to:

Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals
Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents
Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
Becoming jealous easily
Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others
Being obsessed with oneself
Pursuing mainly selfish goals
Trouble keeping healthy relationships
Becoming easily hurt and rejected
Setting goals that are unrealistic
Wanting "the best" of everything
Appearing unemotional

The cause of this disorder is unknown, according to Groopman and Cooper. However, they list the following factors identified by various researchers as possibilities:

An oversensitive temperament at birth
Excessive admiration that is never balanced with realistic feedback
Excessive praise for good behaviors or excessive criticism for bad behaviors in childhood
Overindulgence and overvaluation by parents, other family members, or peers
Being praised for perceived exceptional looks or abilities by adults
Severe emotional abuse in childhood
Unpredictable or unreliable caregiving from parents
Valued by parents as a means to regulate their own self-esteem

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines narcissistic personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[1]

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1.Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2.Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3.Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4.Requires excessive admiration
5.Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6.Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7.Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8.Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9.Shows arrogant, haughty behavior or attitudes.
It is also a requirement of DSM-IV that a diagnosis of any specific

Theodore Millon identified five subtypes of narcissist. Any individual narcissist may exhibit none or one of the following:

Unprincipled narcissist – including [ censored word]ocial features. A charlatan – is a fraudulent, exploitative, deceptive and unscrupulous individual.
Amorous narcissist – including histrionic features. The Don Juan or Casanova of our times – is erotic, exhibitionist.
Compensatory narcissist – including negativistic (passive-aggressive), avoidant features.
Elitist narcissist – variant of pure pattern. Corresponds to Wilhelm Reich's "phallic narcissistic" personality type.
Fanatic narcissist – including paranoid features. An individual whose self-esteem was severely arrested during childhood, who usually displays major paranoid tendencies, and who holds on to an illusion of omnipotence. These people are fighting delusions of insignificance and lost value, and trying to re-establish their self-esteem through grandiose fantasies and self-reinforcement. When unable to gain recognition or support from others, they take on the role of a heroic or worshipped person with a grandiose mission.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

I have no idea, other than to say he's not normal and for the blue forum-I am not a professional in mental health, I don't lecture people in mental health, all I do is sit here copying and pasting.

[Milly]

They do talk a lot of bunkum most of the time.  The womens institute is more interesting though believe you me.   

[John]

An interesting post Joanne.

Oddly, a large number of psychopaths spontaneously improve around middle age.  The phenomenon has been observed for decades, but not explained.  …From adolescence to their fifties, psychopaths showed virtually no change in emotional characteristics but improved dramatically in [ censored word]ocial behavior.  The inner drives did not change, but their behaviour did.  Some expert believe that these psychopaths might simply be adapting.   >@@(*&)

Another informed expert states, "One bit of good news: no one knows why, but, in certain cases, though rarely, with age (in one's forties), the disorder seems to mutate into a subdued version of its former self."

[Joanne]

Thats exactly what one of the reports said. It said from the age of 50, they seem to start to lose some of the traits of psychopathy. I wonder if that applies to people who aren't in prison or whether they just accept their fate as apose to improve? Or perhaps they just do improve.

[John]

Prison regime is a very controlled environment and I would not be in the least surprised if such an environment had an affect on the condition as in the case of Jeremy Bamber.  I have spoken to inmates who shared a wing with him (not Tesko) and they are of the opinion that he is cunning and conniving and most certainly guilty.  You will find that such people are generally on the ball given the time that they have actually spent in the individuals company and observed his demeanour.  I hope this makes sense?

[Milly]

Thats exactly what one of the reports said. It said from the age of 50, they seem to start to lose some of the traits of psychopathy. I wonder if that applies to people who aren't in prison or whether they just accept their fate as apose to improve? Or perhaps they just do improve.

So let me get this straight guys.    What you are saying is that someone who may have been a psychopath in their twentys could well be improved or at least not displaying the symtoms by their middle age??   >@@(*&)

[John]

Thats exactly what one of the reports said. It said from the age of 50, they seem to start to lose some of the traits of psychopathy. I wonder if that applies to people who aren't in prison or whether they just accept their fate as apose to improve? Or perhaps they just do improve.

So let me get this straight guys.    What you are saying is that someone who may have been a psychopath in their twentys could well be improved or at least not displaying the symtoms by their middle age??   >@@(*&)

I have never seen any reference to them being cured as such by middle age, just improved.  I don't believe a psychopath can be cured, you either are or you aren't, there is no middle ground apparently.

There is an entire topic dedicated to this subject...


Narcissistic Personality Disorder - What is it?

What is the Difference between a Psychopath and the Narcissist?

Narcissistic Personality Disorder - Can it be cured?

[Tim Invictus]

Thats exactly what one of the reports said. It said from the age of 50, they seem to start to lose some of the traits of psychopathy. I wonder if that applies to people who aren't in prison or whether they just accept their fate as apose to improve? Or perhaps they just do improve.

So let me get this straight guys.    What you are saying is that someone who may have been a psychopath in their twentys could well be improved or at least not displaying the symtoms by their middle age??   >@@(*&)

Well I used to drive like a lunatic with no patience for anyone on the roads. Now I am a chilled out driver and don't feel the need to drive at 140mph!

[John]

Thats exactly what one of the reports said. It said from the age of 50, they seem to start to lose some of the traits of psychopathy. I wonder if that applies to people who aren't in prison or whether they just accept their fate as apose to improve? Or perhaps they just do improve.

So let me get this straight guys.    What you are saying is that someone who may have been a psychopath in their twentys could well be improved or at least not displaying the symtoms by their middle age??   >@@(*&)

Well I used to drive like a lunatic with no patience for anyone on the roads. Now I am a chilled out driver and don't feel the need to drive at 140mph!

Well hello there Tim!!   

Good to have you back     

[Milly]

Thats exactly what one of the reports said. It said from the age of 50, they seem to start to lose some of the traits of psychopathy. I wonder if that applies to people who aren't in prison or whether they just accept their fate as apose to improve? Or perhaps they just do improve.

So let me get this straight guys.    What you are saying is that someone who may have been a psychopath in their twentys could well be improved or at least not displaying the symtoms by their middle age??   >@@(*&)

Well I used to drive like a lunatic with no patience for anyone on the roads. Now I am a chilled out driver and don't feel the need to drive at 140mph!

Hello Tim. 

Same with me.............my boys say it is old age??   

[John]

Thats exactly what one of the reports said. It said from the age of 50, they seem to start to lose some of the traits of psychopathy. I wonder if that applies to people who aren't in prison or whether they just accept their fate as apose to improve? Or perhaps they just do improve.

So let me get this straight guys.    What you are saying is that someone who may have been a psychopath in their twentys could well be improved or at least not displaying the symtoms by their middle age??   >@@(*&)

Well I used to drive like a lunatic with no patience for anyone on the roads. Now I am a chilled out driver and don't feel the need to drive at 140mph!

Hello Tim. 

Same with me.............my boys say it is old age??   

I must say I agree with what you are saying but we all go through changes as we get older.  We don't take the same risks as we did in our youth...we learn from past experiences...usually!

[Joanne]

Do you want to take the topic down?
I'm supposed to have looked this morning, I'll blame the tramodol! 

[starryian]

An interesting posts Joanne,
After some years working in mental health and particularly dealing with people who are deemed anti-social or display ASPD (anti-social personality disorder) traits, I have had the opportunity to observe them closely and managed to pick up a little about what makes them tick. I am no expert and I do not profess to know any more than anyone else would know. I have studied them a little and here are my thoughts. Take from it what you will.
First and foremost I think it important top point out that this is not a disease and it is not classed as a mental ilness per se, but rather as a (often dangerous) personality trait. It is a pattern of behaviours that have become entrenched within someone's personality.
Psychopathy has been studied for many years. In history they referred to a person now deemed to be a psychopath as being 'morally insane' However, it seems that many people may have the wrong impression of what a psychopath actually is. Far from being the drooling, murderous monsters from our nightmares, most psychopaths in our midst would not attract any attention at all. This normality is all part of what makes them so successful - the ability to remain undetected. While it is true that most - if not all - serial killers are psychopathic, they only represent a tiny minority of the different types of psychopath. While most of us would feel guilt when exploiting or hurting someone, the psychopath is unable to have such feelings. This might explain why most of them do so well in commercial, military or political fields.
So how are they so successful in what they do? Well, they are often amusing, charming and fun to be with. What separates us from them is their complete inability to feel empathy, sympathy, remorse or guilt for their actions. They have no difficulty undertaking actions that most of us would find shameful, distressing or cause us to experience guilt or remorse. They can have jobs, get married and they can break the law like anyone else. But their jobs and marriages usually don’t last and their life is usually on the verge of personal chaos. A psychopath is usually a manipulator. They do this by playing to the emotions of others. They typically have high verbal intelligence, but they lack what is commonly referred to as "emotional intelligence". There is always a shallow quality to the emotional aspect of their stories. In particular they have difficulty describing how they felt, why they felt that way, or how others may have felt and why. Moreover, They do not experience high ranging emotions such as anxiety or worry and are very logical in their thinking, whereas more abstract thinking may elude them. They are often very good with numerical figures and deductive logical reasoning but poor in terms of writing skills, languages and abstract interpretation (reading between the lines)
One of the main charisteristics of a psychopath is the ability to con others. Deception is almost of second nature to them and the psychopath would not think twice about conning others for their own ends. Psychopaths are also very shallow emotionally and will 'talk the talk' but cannot 'walk the walk' They may display emotional distress but they are often acting it out rather than experiencing it. To do this they need to take their cue from others and mimic what they see. This can often lead them into appearing to act inappropriately or 'over the top' in certain social situations. It has been said that they “know the words but not the music.”
The ability to manipulate is key for the psychopath to be successful. They will often display the emotions that the other wants to see, or work on a person's insecurities and find out weaknesses that they can later exploit. At work he will portray a hard working, well-liked individual, but in reality he is scheming behind you back and setting others against you. He may find it easy to seduce members of the opposite sex by telling them exactly what they want to hear and play on their inner insecurities. They draw them in step-by-step, and in so doing the person becomes ever more dependant on them as the psychopath exerts more control. This has the effect of making it extremely difficult for the person to get a true picture of what is happening to them and harder still to to break free from their control.
Another key facet of psychopathy is the utter inability to take responsibility for their own actions. They will often blame others for something that they themselves are guilty of. If caught out the psychopath will shift the blame onto the victim. For example, M25 rapist Antoni Imiela tried to justify his appalling crimes by stating 'it was her fault she was raped.......she dressed so provocatively' This is par-for-the-course for a psychopath as they are unable to sense the sheer hypocrisy in what they are saying.
This brings me to my last point; a psychopath nearly universally posses a overblown sense of entitlement. They see the skills, sucesses and possessions of others with something approaching barely concealed envy. So much so that corportate psychopaths have been known to steal the ideas of others and claim them for themselves. They see them as theirs by right and justify it thus; 'I would have thought of it first anyway'They are always right and everyone else is either wrong or they simply dont count. This gives rise to the insufferable confidence and arrogance that so many psychopaths are famous for.
Moreover one interesting fact is that some psychopaths have a very poor autonomic response system - (a set of automatic instructions hotwired to our brain that controls our heartbeat, breathing, blinking and other things we do without thinking) they don't blink as often as other people and this gives them a distinct 'stare' However, this is just an observation as many psychopaths do not exhib this.
It is true that psychopaths do seem to mellow with age as their mental agilities slowly errodes. Most serial killers are between 20-40 year of age and it is exceptionally rare to find any that begin their odious careers any older.
The reason for this maybe biological in terms of age, but it may also be due to the loss of physical prowess also.
Moreover, the evidence suggest that psychopaths cannot be cured. In fact they Dr Robert Hare (an expert in psychopathy) suggests that with therapy the psychopath will only learn more increasingly devious methods to avoid detection. For example, some studies show that after receiving group therapy in prison, psychopaths are more likely to commit new crimes than if they had received no treatment at all. Listening to others bare their soul is clearly not a good strategy: psychopaths are notoriously good at learning and exploiting the weaknesses of others. They
also have trouble absorbing abstract ideas, so lectures about personal responsibility are unlikely to penetrate.
In short, you would probably not recognise a psychopath in the street and would not know if you met one until it is too late, and usually by that time the psychopath would have moved on to his next victim and you will be left feeling completely used and devastated or, in some extreme examples......very dead.

So is Jeremy Bamber a psychopath? It would certainly seem so. He ticks an awful lot of boxes.
The psychiatrist at his orginal trial certainly seemed to think so and commented that Bamber was a textbook case. However, with respect, I cannot say for a fact whether he is or isn't. I certainly suspect that he is. The tests he has had in prison - some 27 I believe, all are suggestive of Bamber being perfectly normal. However, we do not know under what conditions, criteria or auspices these test were carried out as no final reports have ever been fully published.

[John]

Do you want to take the topic down?
I'm supposed to have looked this morning, I'll blame the tramodol! 

Certainly not...I believe it is a very valid question which even the blue forum are considering.

[puglove]

Do you want to take the topic down?
I'm supposed to have looked this morning, I'll blame the tramodol! 

Certainly not...I believe it is a very valid question which even the blue forum are considering.

What has happened to the blue forum? I've never read so much silly shite in all my life. It's embarrassing.