Author Topic: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope: Curtains may hold key to who took her.  (Read 29485 times)

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Offline pathfinder73

Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope: Curtains may hold key to who took her.
« Reply #90 on: October 29, 2014, 12:09:37 PM »
But they will be interested in testing the car boot hairs.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline faithlilly

Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope: Curtains may hold key to who took her.
« Reply #91 on: October 29, 2014, 12:21:59 PM »

The crime occurred in May.

Rather remiss to be collecting forensics in August from a crime scene which had been released and other families allowed to holiday in during the intervening period?

Know what ... I doubt if SY are particularly interested in those curtains ... probably be as well to ignore what CdM are currently selling newspapers with ... and get it straight from the horse's mouth, whenever that may be.

Know what.......I think we all have the intelligence to make up our own minds on this one Brietta, thanks all the same.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Brietta

Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope: Curtains may hold key to who took her.
« Reply #92 on: October 29, 2014, 12:35:03 PM »
But they will be interested in testing the car boot hairs.

If it comforts you to think so ... why should that be a problem?

I am sure they know exactly what they want to test or retest ... imho they will be looking to identify foreign DNA ... not the DNA of people who had every right to be in the location from where the samples were taken.

In case you missed it ... FOREIGN DNA. Which may or may not belong to an abductor?
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope: Curtains may hold key to who took her.
« Reply #93 on: October 29, 2014, 01:03:06 PM »
wasn't it that the markers found  in Britain 15 would have been enough....but not in Portugal....




http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/528865/Madeleine-McCann-human-hairs-hunt-Portugal

Madeleine McCann: Untested human hairs provide new hope in police hunt for DNA clues

BRITISH detectives probing the Madeleine McCann disappearance in Portugal want to retest hairs after it was found previous DNA tests carried out during the original investigation were incomplete.




Madeleine McCann who went missing in 2007Police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann want to DNA test hairs[AP]

Nearly 100 strands of hair tested during the original Madeleine McCann investigation were never DNA-matched, it emerged today.

Portuguese forensic experts analysed 444 hair strands they believed could hold the key to the youngster’s May 3 2007 disappearance.

They found 432 were human and 12 non-human. They were unable to DNA-match 98 of them and only obtained partial results from 19 of them, Portuguese daily Correio da Manha reported.

MADELEINE MCCANN: THE SEARCH CONTINUES

British detectives probing Madeleine McCann’s disappearance want to retest some of the hairs as well as curtains hanging in the Algarve apartment where she vanished.

Scotland Yard are expected to apply for permission in a sixth international letter of request to take the samples from a Portuguese lab so experts can look at them in the UK.

The fifth letter, understood to contain a request to reinterview three new suspects quizzed in the summer, has yet to be answered by new Madeleine McCann prosecutor Ines Sequeira.

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 Has Madeleine McCann finally been found in Spain? Police investigate new sighting
A Met Police team led by DCI Andy Redwood announced their wish to look again at forensic material collected in the early days of the Madeleine McCann investigation during a visit to the university town of Coimbra earlier this month.

They met with the bosses of Portugal’s Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences in Coimbra, two hours drive north of Lisbon, where most of the material, also said to include 25 blood and saliva samples, is held.

Institute president Francisco Brizida, said afterwards: “I have the certainty they went away very happy.”

“The tonic of the meeting was about the possibility of the tests on samples collected in 2007 being re-done.

“The British police wanted clarification on the examinations the institute had carried out during the early stages of the inquiry in the areas of genetics and biology.

“We talked about non-identified material that was collected in Madeleine’s apartment.

“I can’t say for sure new DNA tests that didn’t yield a conclusive result in 2007 could now yield an objective result.

“But technology nowadays allows us to go further than years ago in areas like genetic markers.


“Several possibilities are open. One could be that British police do the tests in Britain with British technology and another that the institute does them.

“But that’s an area in which the institute does not have the last word. There’s a situation of judicial cooperation and a new international letter of request would be necessary.

another myth.....depends where the dna is found. In a car where other family members have been its meaningless. 

Offline lordpookles

Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope: Curtains may hold key to who took her.
« Reply #94 on: October 29, 2014, 01:20:15 PM »
My understanding it was 15 out of around 35 markers and not 19, which makes the results basically useless as Madeleines parents together would share the same common markers...

Offline Carana

Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope: Curtains may hold key to who took her.
« Reply #95 on: October 29, 2014, 01:36:38 PM »
Groundhog day indeed.

I think it would be sensible not to rely on sources such as Correio da Manha for information … might be an idea to wait for official notification about what is going on … it avoids headlines such as the 100% DNA.

>>snip<<
Portuguese forensic experts analysed 444 hair strands they believed could hold the key to the three-year-old disappearance in May 2007.

They found 432 were human and 12 non-human. They were unable to DNA-match 98 of them and only obtained partial results from 19 of them, the Portuguese daily newspaper Correio da Manha reported.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/hair-strands-during-original-madeleine-mccann-investigation-never-dnamatched-9825210.html

That actually seems accurate for once:

First: In total in the two phases of the case there were 25 reference samples and 447 vestiges studied: 1 spot on the counterpane; 2 objects from the car boot and 444 hairs. The macro- and microscopic analyses of the 444 hairs revealed that 432 were humano and 12 non-human, no result being obtained for 98 hairs and only partial results for l9 hairs. With respect to the plastic object from the car boot no results were obtained.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope: Curtains may hold key to who took her.
« Reply #96 on: October 29, 2014, 01:43:53 PM »
PRELIMINARY RESULTS
PREPARATION FOR THE INTERROGATIONS

Analyses of the residues collected following the visit by the dogs is entrusted to the English Forensic Science Service laboratory. To avoid any leaks of information, Stuart Prior, a senior officer with Leicestershire police, is responsible for liaison between the laboratory and José Freitas of Scotland Yard. The latter, who is with us, in Portimão, is passing on any relevant reports.

We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.

At the beginning of September, shortly before the McCann couple are placed under investigation, Superintendent Stuart Prior travels to Portimão to present the first of the two preliminary reports from the laboratory and to discuss the progress of the investigation.

At a meeting in our office, with the Portuguese and the English investigation team, Stuart expresses his disappointment over the test results. This is where the saga of the FSS reports begins. We read the part of the report dealing with the traces of blood lifted from the floor of apartment 5A, from behind the sofa and in the boot of the McCanns’ car
and we don’t agree with Stuart’s disappointment We talk about blood traces because the CSI dog is trained to find only that bodily fluid. The reports that support that decision are clear: the CSI dog was used to detect human blood. Low Copy Number, the technique used to determine the DNA of the samples, does not identify the nature of the bodily fluid they are derived from. But we know it’s definitely traces of blood and not other bodily fluids since the CSI dog is trained to detect only human blood.

In the first case, the laboratory considers that the result of the analysis is inconclusive because the samples gathered provide very little information when the DNA comes from more than one person. But all the confirmed DNA components match with the corresponding components in Madeleine’s DNA profile!.

As for the second case, after an explanation about the DNA components in Madeleine’s genetic profile, it concludes that 15 out of 19 markers in Madeleine’s profile are present in the sample examined. Only 4 short of 100% reliability. The FSS specialists qualify the results as, “complex,” and state that these 15 markers are not enough to conclude with certainty that it’s definitely Madeleine’s DNA profile, especially as Low Copy Number picked out a total of 37 in the sample. That means that at least three individuals contributed to this result.

But there was more in this first preliminary report. In the same report, the scientist went further and explained that in the profiles of many of the lab experts, elements from the DNA profile of Madeleine are present. This means that a major part of the DNA profile of any given person can be built by three donors. That is understandable. Two questions arose immediately. The first one: what good is a DNA profile in terms of criminal evidence, if it can be the combination of three or more donors? Another question was simple: why did the DNA profile from those three donors contribute to Madeleine’s DNA profile and not to that of any other person, like the scientist who carried out the test? But the surprises from the preliminary reports were not to end there.

On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine’s DNA profile.

As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed.

Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue:either this LCN technique is not reliable or it’s simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine’s DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance.

At our insistence, Stuart contacts the FSS and asks them if they think the Portuguese are idiots. We hear him saying: “With a lot less than that, we would have already arrested someone in England.” I look at my colleagues and see that they are as stupified as I am. In fact, in Portugal, it’s not so easy to arrest someone. We explain to Stuart that the McCanns interrogations would not result in detention. According to Portuguese law, the crimes of concealment of a corpse and simulating an abduction are not liable to remanding in custody.

WHAT THE LABORATORY REPORTS BRING TO LIGHT
The preliminary results from FSS were enlightening in a way, and confirmed the information given by the EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and the CSI dog.

– The CSI dog, Keela, signaled the presence of human blood where Eddie, the EVRD dog, marked the presence of cadaver odour – on the floor tiles behind the sofa in the lounge, on the key and in the boot of the Renault Scenic that was used by the McCanns from May 27th onwards.

– the bodily fluids, according to the FSS, contain markers from Madeleine’s DNA profile.

These elements do not constitute concrete proof but simply clues to be added to those we already possess. In itself, the definition of a DNA profile from LCN is not considered as evidence in a criminal investigation. In his report, the English scientist says that he cannot give answers to the following questions: when was the DNA deposited? In what way? What bodily fluid does the DNA come from? Has a crime been committed?

The scientific evidence is not enough and it has to be accompanied by other types of material, documented and testimonial evidence. It is only in this way that the entire puzzle can be reconstructed and certainties can be achieved, for the material truth to be established.

The FSS has still not provided the result of the technical analysis of the hair found in the boot of the car. Once more, Stuart has to contact the laboratory. Nothing has been done. We want to know two things: if the hair is indeed Madeleine’s, and if it comes from a living or a dead person. The FSS can only answer the first question. English colleagues present at the meeting raise the possibility of the hair being sent to other European laboratories which have the resources to clear up the second point for us: hair from a living or a dead person. But the FSS does not seem to want to part with the hair. They claim that using a colour comparison test they can establish if the hair belongs to Madeleine and in a second stage, identify the DNA profile. None of that will happen. We never find out if the hair was Madeleine’s or her parents’ or her brother’s or her sister’s, even though the laboratory has the DNA profiles of each member of the family.

Let’s remember: it is totally logical to find Madeleine’s DNA in the home, but absolutely not in a car rented more than twenty days after her disappearance. (TOTL)
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline lordpookles

Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope: Curtains may hold key to who took her.
« Reply #97 on: October 29, 2014, 02:38:56 PM »
I haven't read that before from Portuguese point of view. Nice post. What could be the possible excuse for not testing the hair or returning it? Seems poor...

Offline Carana

Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope: Curtains may hold key to who took her.
« Reply #98 on: October 29, 2014, 03:12:25 PM »
I haven't read that before from Portuguese point of view. Nice post. What could be the possible excuse for not testing the hair or returning it? Seems poor...

What are you referring to? The hair fragments from the Scenic? They were returned, there's a receipt slip signed by Inspector Viegas.


Offline Carana

Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope: Curtains may hold key to who took her.
« Reply #99 on: October 29, 2014, 03:15:33 PM »
wasn't it that the markers found  in Britain 15 would have been enough....but not in Portugal....


No. That seems to be a Levy special completely confusing different issues. Even though it still manages to remain in the Top 100 myth charts.

There's at least one thread on that on here somewhere.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 03:22:49 PM by Carana »

Offline lordpookles

Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope: Curtains may hold key to who took her.
« Reply #100 on: October 29, 2014, 04:56:30 PM »
Carana - ok. Do you know whether the hairs were eventually tested?

Offline Carana

Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope: Curtains may hold key to who took her.
« Reply #101 on: October 29, 2014, 04:59:57 PM »
Carana - ok. Do you know whether the hairs were eventually tested?

Which ones? If you mean the hair fragments from the Scenic, the Palmer report is here:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/A_L_PALMER.htm

Those hairs were returned to the PJ.

Offline Carana

Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope: Curtains may hold key to who took her.
« Reply #102 on: October 29, 2014, 05:20:40 PM »
My understanding it was 15 out of around 35 markers and not 19, which makes the results basically useless as Madeleines parents together would share the same common markers...

More or less, however, there are several areas of confusion.

One is that an allele (or component in FSS report parlance) is not the same as a marker. A marker (which is also a misnomer, but it will do) is used to mean two allele values at that "marker" area.

Fifteen markers required for a paternity test in Portugal therefore means 30 alleles, not 15.

Another issue is that 15 alleles out of 20 were found. There were only 19 peaks because at one marker area, she'd inherited the same allele value from both parents. However, those 15 alleles were in a mixed soup of 37 alleles from between 3 and 5 donors, in a location that numerous relatives may have touched, in particular her parents. There is therefore no way of determining whether those 15 are actually hers or simply the alleles in common with the various donors.

There are a few other issues, e.g., that the UK only uses a 10 marker system (SGM+), i.e., it only checks for 20 alleles in 10 marker locations, whereas the PT system checks for more - 15 markers, i.e, 30 alleles.

I could go on...

Offline Benice

Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope: Curtains may hold key to who took her.
« Reply #103 on: October 29, 2014, 05:45:20 PM »
PRELIMINARY RESULTS
PREPARATION FOR THE INTERROGATIONS

Analyses of the residues collected following the visit by the dogs is entrusted to the English Forensic Science Service laboratory. To avoid any leaks of information, Stuart Prior, a senior officer with Leicestershire police, is responsible for liaison between the laboratory and José Freitas of Scotland Yard. The latter, who is with us, in Portimão, is passing on any relevant reports.

We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.

At the beginning of September, shortly before the McCann couple are placed under investigation, Superintendent Stuart Prior travels to Portimão to present the first of the two preliminary reports from the laboratory and to discuss the progress of the investigation.

At a meeting in our office, with the Portuguese and the English investigation team, Stuart expresses his disappointment over the test results. This is where the saga of the FSS reports begins. We read the part of the report dealing with the traces of blood lifted from the floor of apartment 5A, from behind the sofa and in the boot of the McCanns’ car
and we don’t agree with Stuart’s disappointment We talk about blood traces because the CSI dog is trained to find only that bodily fluid. The reports that support that decision are clear: the CSI dog was used to detect human blood. Low Copy Number, the technique used to determine the DNA of the samples, does not identify the nature of the bodily fluid they are derived from. But we know it’s definitely traces of blood and not other bodily fluids since the CSI dog is trained to detect only human blood.

In the first case, the laboratory considers that the result of the analysis is inconclusive because the samples gathered provide very little information when the DNA comes from more than one person. But all the confirmed DNA components match with the corresponding components in Madeleine’s DNA profile!.

As for the second case, after an explanation about the DNA components in Madeleine’s genetic profile, it concludes that 15 out of 19 markers in Madeleine’s profile are present in the sample examined. Only 4 short of 100% reliability. The FSS specialists qualify the results as, “complex,” and state that these 15 markers are not enough to conclude with certainty that it’s definitely Madeleine’s DNA profile, especially as Low Copy Number picked out a total of 37 in the sample. That means that at least three individuals contributed to this result.

But there was more in this first preliminary report. In the same report, the scientist went further and explained that in the profiles of many of the lab experts, elements from the DNA profile of Madeleine are present. This means that a major part of the DNA profile of any given person can be built by three donors. That is understandable. Two questions arose immediately. The first one: what good is a DNA profile in terms of criminal evidence, if it can be the combination of three or more donors? Another question was simple: why did the DNA profile from those three donors contribute to Madeleine’s DNA profile and not to that of any other person, like the scientist who carried out the test? But the surprises from the preliminary reports were not to end there.

On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine’s DNA profile.

As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed.

Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue:either this LCN technique is not reliable or it’s simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine’s DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance.

At our insistence, Stuart contacts the FSS and asks them if they think the Portuguese are idiots. We hear him saying: “With a lot less than that, we would have already arrested someone in England.” I look at my colleagues and see that they are as stupified as I am. In fact, in Portugal, it’s not so easy to arrest someone. We explain to Stuart that the McCanns interrogations would not result in detention. According to Portuguese law, the crimes of concealment of a corpse and simulating an abduction are not liable to remanding in custody.

WHAT THE LABORATORY REPORTS BRING TO LIGHT
The preliminary results from FSS were enlightening in a way, and confirmed the information given by the EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and the CSI dog.

The CSI dog, Keela, signaled the presence of human blood where Eddie, the EVRD dog, marked the presence of cadaver odour – on the floor tiles behind the sofa in the lounge, on the key and in the boot of the Renault Scenic that was used by the McCanns from May 27th onwards.

– the bodily fluids, according to the FSS, contain markers from Madeleine’s DNA profile.

These elements do not constitute concrete proof but simply clues to be added to those we already possess. In itself, the definition of a DNA profile from LCN is not considered as evidence in a criminal investigation. In his report, the English scientist says that he cannot give answers to the following questions: when was the DNA deposited? In what way? What bodily fluid does the DNA come from? Has a crime been committed?

The scientific evidence is not enough and it has to be accompanied by other types of material, documented and testimonial evidence. It is only in this way that the entire puzzle can be reconstructed and certainties can be achieved, for the material truth to be established.

The FSS has still not provided the result of the technical analysis of the hair found in the boot of the car. Once more, Stuart has to contact the laboratory. Nothing has been done. We want to know two things: if the hair is indeed Madeleine’s, and if it comes from a living or a dead person. The FSS can only answer the first question. English colleagues present at the meeting raise the possibility of the hair being sent to other European laboratories which have the resources to clear up the second point for us: hair from a living or a dead person. But the FSS does not seem to want to part with the hair. They claim that using a colour comparison test they can establish if the hair belongs to Madeleine and in a second stage, identify the DNA profile. None of that will happen. We never find out if the hair was Madeleine’s or her parents’ or her brother’s or her sister’s, even though the laboratory has the DNA profiles of each member of the family.

Let’s remember: it is totally logical to find Madeleine’s DNA in the home, but absolutely not in a car rented more than twenty days after her disappearance. (TOTL)

What a totally misleading statement.     Eddie did not alert in the car and Amaral shows his complete ignorance of the fact that Eddie - like Keela, would also alert to blood - from a dead or living person.  He appears to be under the impression that Eddie only alerted to cadaverscent.   Such an abysmal lack of knowledge of the facts -  in an area of investigation which he claimed to be of major importance in the case is shameful IMO.     

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Carana

Re: Madeleine McCann new DNA hope: Curtains may hold key to who took her.
« Reply #104 on: October 29, 2014, 05:46:43 PM »
There are 3 DNA profiles in the files. None can be Madeleine (for a start they are of men) yet between them they share 13 (?*) alleles in common.

* I did check some time ago and I'm going from memory as I can't be bothered to check them all again.

If any 3-4 of us here touched the same spot, it is highly probable that we would also share a similar amount of alleles in common with hers. A test could not then formally exclude the possibility that Madeleine had touched the same spot that we had, but in terms of evidence, it means squiddly zilch.

Plus the fact that even if her DNA had been in the car, there would be know way of determining whether this was a transfer from packing up and moving the family's belongings (including hers) to the villa.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 06:10:32 PM by Carana »