Was there a vehicle in the car park outside Madeleine's bedroom window?

[misty]

I think the vehicle seen might have indeed been Mrs Fenn's, but that can only be speculation because there is no record of it being confirmed as hers.
Is the vehicle in the clip the same make and model as hers?  Otherwise it could belong to someone connected to the investigation eg. the forensics team.   

Stephen Carpenter is the only other person apart from Maria da Silva, as far as I know, who has mentioned vehicles in the area at the relevant time.

Misty wonders in her opening post why the PJ didn't seem to be interested in asking all the witnesses direct questions about what vehicles they may have seen.
It seems such an obvious question to ask it is very surprising it no-one bothered to ask it and it is surely a serious omission.

*snip*
When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm

The small grey car wasn't Mrs Fenn's - you can see the vehicle Mrs Fenn got out of in the video Anna kindly gave us the link to previously.

Maybe the car belonged to a resident after all. See the grey car parked next to Mrs Fenn at 0.30

People are creatures of habit when they park their cars outside their homes and, from the video showing the 2 vehicles parked alongside each other, it would seem that possibly Mrs Fenn's vehicle was not in the car park at 10pm when Maria passed by.

[pegasus]

There were 2 cars in the block 5 carpark that night, all IMO
1. a small grey car, I posted a photo of it the next morning, still in exactly the same position as the witnesses driving past at 10pm had seen it in. It did not move, it is irrelevant.
2. a larger white car (Mrs F's), parked almost certainly nearer the north wall of the carpark and so less visible to the witnesses driving by at 10pm, also this did not move, and is irrelevant.
There is nothing suspicious about people parking their cars in their own car park.

[pathfinder73]

I think the vehicle seen might have indeed been Mrs Fenn's, but that can only be speculation because there is no record of it being confirmed as hers.
Is the vehicle in the clip the same make and model as hers?  Otherwise it could belong to someone connected to the investigation eg. the forensics team.   

Stephen Carpenter is the only other person apart from Maria da Silva, as far as I know, who has mentioned vehicles in the area at the relevant time.

Misty wonders in her opening post why the PJ didn't seem to be interested in asking all the witnesses direct questions about what vehicles they may have seen.
It seems such an obvious question to ask it is very surprising it no-one bothered to ask it and it is surely a serious omission.

*snip*
When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and i calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm

He is talking about cars parked on the road near to the pathway/side gate. He needs to provide an exact time because Matt, Russ, Jez etc. didn't see any cars parked there.

[sadie]

The small grey car wasn't Mrs Fenn's - you can see the vehicle Mrs Fenn got out of in the video Anna kindly gave us the link to previously.


People are creatures of habit when they park their cars outside their homes and, from the video showing the 2 vehicles parked alongside each other, it would seem that possibly Mrs Fenn's vehicle was not in the car park at 10pm when Maria passed by.

Do we know if the car that we saw Mrs Fenn with is her car, cos i wonderd about the man following her.  Is he a taxi driver?

Without looking at it again, it seemed a big car to me.  Not london black cab , but a typical taxi type car.

Do we know if Mrs Fenn owned that car?  In fact do we know that she can drive?

[DCI]

Do we know if the car that we saw Mrs Fenn with is her car, cos i wonderd about the man following her.  Is he a taxi driver?

Without looking at it again, it seemed a big car to me.  Not london black cab , but a typical taxi type car.

Do we know if Mrs Fenn owned that car?  In fact do we know that she can drive?

Looks like a cleaner or handyman, Sadie. He's carrying a brush of some sort and what looks like a dustpan. He isn't carrying any shopping.

[misty]

Do we know if the car that we saw Mrs Fenn with is her car, cos i wonderd about the man following her.  Is he a taxi driver?

Without looking at it again, it seemed a big car to me.  Not london black cab , but a typical taxi type car.

Do we know if Mrs Fenn owned that car?  In fact do we know that she can drive?

She opened the car boot herself, Sadie, took her shopping out & closed the boot herself. That signifies to me it was her car.

[sadie]

Looks like a cleaner or handyman, Sadie. He's carrying a brush of some sort and what looks like a dustpan. He isn't carrying any shopping.

sounds like I am  wrong then.  Maybe it was her car. 

Thought it was worth questioning and I am too tired these days to check every photo / video.

Glad you guys did 

[pegasus]

She opened the car boot herself, Sadie, took her shopping out & closed the boot herself. That signifies to me it was her car.

Thanks misty its good to see a bit of common sense logic.

[misty]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm

*snip*

DC1485'Who else lives there?

CT' Actually, she is the only resident, which may seem strange but she wants to be there. So she is the only resident. All the other owners, the majority of them, more or less, are people who acquired the apartments and rent them or else use them only for holidays. For this reason, there are times in the year when she is alone.

DC1485'And who else lives with her'

CT' She is completely alone.

DC1485'Alone.

CT' No one else.

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I wonder who that little grey car belonged to - present both on the night of 3rd May & weeks later when Mrs Fenn was spoken to by the press?

[pegasus]

...
... I wonder who that little grey car belonged to - present both on the night of 3rd May & weeks later when Mrs Fenn was spoken to by the press?

Easily solved misty but irrelevant. If a car was involved that night (I don't think any car was involved that night) you would be looking for one that drove away, and neither of these two cars did.

[misty]

Easily solved misty but irrelevant. If a car was involved that night (I don't think any car was involved that night) you would be looking for one that drove away, and neither of these two cars did.

I just don't understand why the PJ didn't ask any of the Tapas checkers what vehicles they noticed in the front car park that evening. It would have been really interesting to know if Mrs Fenn's car was parked there all evening, or whether, in fact, that was actually the night she had gone out & only returned at around say 2215 - hence her late appearance on the balcony at around 2300hrs (source:-Madeleine) some 45 minutes after the commotion started.

[pegasus]

I just don't understand why the PJ didn't ask any of the Tapas checkers what vehicles they noticed in the front car park that evening. It would have been really interesting to know if Mrs Fenn's car was parked there all evening, or whether, in fact, that was actually the night she had gone out & only returned at around say 2215 - hence her late appearance on the balcony at around 2300hrs (source:-Madeleine) some 45 minutes after the commotion started.

She was in continuously from 3.30pm onwards IMO. It was about 10.30pm (not 11.00pm) when she heard the noise and went out onto balcony. So her (large white) car was in the car park. The reason the witnesses driving past mentioned only the other (small grey) car is because it was parked next to the 5A window. The witnesses did not say it was the only car in the car park. 

[sadie]

The long and short of this thread is that in all truth we dont actually know what cars, if any, were parked in front of the window that night.

I am not convinced that the grey car mentioned by witness "de Silva" was actually seen by her there.  The wall surrounding O.C is very high all around that corner, Rua Francisco Gentil Martins  to Rua Agostinho de Silva ... and she would have to have looked at an angle of at least 90^ through moving sweeping branches /twigs at an area that was in deep dimness.  Unless she actually looked when she was past it at the drive in area.  At which position she would have been looking backwards.


Most people do not look backwards at dark areas.  It is unnatural.   We almost always look forward after dark, at the area being illuminated by our headlights and only sometimes look sideways if something moving or brightly lit catches our eye.

I think she remembered it wrongly

OMO

[pegasus]

...I think she remembered it wrongly...

As there was a small grey car in that spot next morning, I think the witness remembered accurately.
 

[sadie]

As there was a small grey car in that spot next morning, I think the witness remembered accurately.

At what time?

The truth of the matter is that we dont know if there was a small grey car there, or not.  Assume that if you like, but I think that if you are using it to build scenarios, then you should make it plain that there may, or may not, have been a car there

If the witness did see that car then she didn't see it until she was at least around the very high corner wall (about ? 6 - 7 feet tall) and had gone a little distance along along Rua Agostinho de Silva.  Then she would have been at least level with it and looking directly to the side thru waving fonds of the trees into a verty dimly lit parking area.
OR
She had passed it and was looking back  via the front drive in, again into a very dimly lit place.


IMO, but I think you will find that I am right.


Let's make it clear.  I am not saying that there was, or wasn't, a car there.

I am saying that i dont think it at all likely that the witness saw it... there, but maybe outside the similar window in block 4?


cos it aint natural to look right to the side or backwards in a moving car especially if the place the passenger is looking at is dark
And the gusts would have caused the low level fonds [flexible low level twigs] which reached the wall to have been swaying and even thrashing around.  Not much, if any,  of a grey car in the dim light would have been noticeable beyond them IMO