Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.

[Holly Goodhead]

There was no phone call from Nevill to the police that morning... the only one they received was from Jeremy Bamber.

Most of the shell casings were found on the floor of the master bedroom, so Nevill was shot and wounded there, not on the stairs lower down than his assailant.

If NB was shot and wounded in the bedroom why wasnt any of his blood found on the carpet or bedding?  The two gunshot wounds he sustained to his face contained a rich supply of blood hence Dr V said there would be heavy blood loss internally and externally. 

[Passer-by]

If NB was shot and wounded in the bedroom why wasnt any of his blood found on the carpet or bedding?  The two gunshot wounds he sustained to his face contained a rich supply of blood hence Dr V said there would be heavy blood loss internally and externally.

Quite:  ever seen how much blood comes from just a nosebleed?! 

[Passer-by]

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5594.0;attach=4506

Thanks for that Holly:  so ignoring the 2 by Sheila, there were 10 bullet casings found in the bedroom and 2 outside the door/on the stairs (and I think from another diagram another one on the landing)?

[Myster]

The casings were in the bedroom, indicating the gun was fired in the bedroom, not whether Nevill was standing in it or in the doorway.

This has been discussed here...

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg198931#msg198931

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5863.msg212504#msg212504

[Passer-by]

Thank you for the links Myster.  I've read a lot of your discussions when doing google searches prior to joining, but can never find them again now I've joined the forum.

As Holly points out though, the blood group on the socks indicates it was June's blood not Nevills - and I think the least likely scenario is that JB would shoot June before Nevill.  I think if Bamber did it either he would dispatch the twins first as the morally most horrific (so easier whilst asleep) or Nevill as his greatest adversary who might thwart him, or Sheila because she needed one clean shot without a fight.  It seems to me that in the bedroom June was shot before Nevill, and was shot so badly that if Nevill had been present he would have, at the very least, thrown his body over hers:  I don't think he would have left her incapacitated with the murderer undoubtedly going to finish her off whilst he was trying to escape to the phone.

[Passer-by]

This has been discussed here...

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg198931#msg198931

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5863.msg212504#msg212504

Thank you Myster:  the drawings are certainly helpful as well.

As a point of interest, if the casings fly right and possibly forwards the two found near Sheila should be under the bed if someone else shot her.  In order to lie down and shoot oneself one might find it very awkward balancing the gun the 'normal' way up and either lie it on its side (forcing the casings either into her or up in the air - the latter making them land on or near her body) or more likely hold it upside down with the butt steadied between the legs and squeeze the trigger with the right thumb, pushing away from the head - which would fire the casings to Sheila's right, where they were found.

A murderer would have to show extraordinary presence of mind to work that one out and shoot her with gun held upside down, or even to think of repositioning the casings.

I feel quite chuffed with that:  I'd just put the Black Cap on for Bamber, but I think that's good enough for a temporary reprieve (until you doubtless explain something to confound it ;-) )

[Myster]

Thank you for the links Myster.  I've read a lot of your discussions when doing google searches prior to joining, but can never find them again now I've joined the forum.

As Holly points out though, the blood group on the socks indicates it was June's blood not Nevills - and I think the least likely scenario is that JB would shoot June before Nevill.  I think if Bamber did it either he would dispatch the twins first as the morally most horrific (so easier whilst asleep) or Nevill as his greatest adversary who might thwart him, or Sheila because she needed one clean shot without a fight.  It seems to me that in the bedroom June was shot before Nevill, and was shot so badly that if Nevill had been present he would have, at the very least, thrown his body over hers:  I don't think he would have left her incapacitated with the murderer undoubtedly going to finish her off whilst he was trying to escape to the phone.

I don't see the twins being shot first. Dr Vanezis was of the opinion that all eight bullets were fired at the same time. They appeared to be in an arc on one twin. Why would JB take the risk of alerting his dad if asleep or dozing in bed, by the noise of eight shots resounding around the upstairs rooms, especially if he was the one most likely to provide the greatest resistance. I think the first thing Nevill would do is to jump out of bed in an effort to grab the rifle and stop the onslaught, not become a passive victim himself.  It's a matter of self-preservation.

[Myster]

Thank you Myster:  the drawings are certainly helpful as well.

As a point of interest, if the casings fly right and possibly forwards the two found near Sheila should be under the bed if someone else shot her.  In order to lie down and shoot oneself one might find it very awkward balancing the gun the 'normal' way up and either lie it on its side (forcing the casings either into her or up in the air - the latter making them land on or near her body) or more likely hold it upside down with the butt steadied between the legs and squeeze the trigger with the right thumb, pushing away from the head - which would fire the casings to Sheila's right, where they were found.

A murderer would have to show extraordinary presence of mind to work that one out and shoot her with gun held upside down, or even to think of repositioning the casings.

I feel quite chuffed with that:  I'd just put the Black Cap on for Bamber, but I think that's good enough for a temporary reprieve (until you doubtless explain something to confound it ;-) )

The casings need not have flown under the bed.  The mattress sides shielded the space below to an extent and could easily take the inertia away from and deflect the two casings back, if that was where they hit. Bamber might have fiddled with their position as well.

[John]

There is something which has always bothered me in relation to the spread of the empty bullet casings and with Passer-by asking a related question recently I have additional thoughts on this.

Referring to the forensics photo below, my original view was that the empty shell casings lying by Junes side of the bed were from the bullets which killed her and that the ones just inside the door related to Nevill.  The forensic science report was effectively saying the same thing.

But!  ...and this is a big but.  If the .22 Anschutz ejected shell casings to the right then assuming the killer stood just inside the door to shoot Nevill, then the ejected casings would have been sent towards June.

Similarly, when Jeremy shot June, the ejected casings would have been directed towards the door.

[John]

This raises a very interesting point in relation to Sheila because if she had been shot where she was found the shell casings would have ended up on the bed and NOT on the floor either side of her head??

[Passer-by]

Thanks for re-threading this John!

Myster possibility is infinite!

But if she was lying down and the shot staged, the casing would have flown low down and more likely to have fallen between the bed and the body if they had hit the bed:  either they were going at such a velocity they would have embedded in it, or more likely only having light momentum in the first place (the shots didn't even exit the victims' bodies) the bed would have completely absorbed the energy and they would have dropped.  I see the bed was a divan with padded/upholstered sides, so unlikely to ricochet.

[Passer-by]

This raises a very interesting point in relation to Sheila because if she had been shot where she was found the shell casing would have ended up on the bed and NOT on the floor either side of her head??

Exactly. 

But the pooling of her blood and the stains on her nightshirt strongly suggest she was shot where she lay.  If she had been shot elsewhere and moved to the side of the bed the amount of blood she was leaking there'd have been a hell of a mess and a trail of blood left behind on the carpet.

[Passer-by]

There is something which has always bothered me in relation to the spread of the empty bullet casings and with Passer-by asking a related question recently I have additional thoughts on this.

Referring to the forensics photo below, my original view was that the empty shell casings lying by Junes side of the bed were from the bullets which killed her and that the ones just inside the door related to Nevill.  The forensic science report was effectively saying the same thing.

But!  ...and this is a big but.  If the .22 Anschutz ejected shell casings to the right then assuming the killer stood just inside the door to shoot Nevill, then the ejected casings would have been sent towards June.

Similarly, when Jeremy shot June, the ejected casings would have been directed towards the door.

I partly agree, except I don't see how June left so much blood on the bed and Nevill didn't.  I think Sheila was shot from the door by someone moving forward to the end of the bed as they shot (hence bullet up the inside of the leg) but I think the casings bottom right were fired when they were standing in the room but firing from the end of the bed through the door at Nevill.  I think the killer returned later for a couple of last shots to make sure June was dead after the shock of Nevill taking so much more than they'd expected.

[Passer-by]

This might be a better place to repost the link about suicide ballistic advice, in particular double-shot suicide.

http://dmmoyle.com/simeans.htm

Although less common, it's common enough.  Causes included the suicidee flinching on the first shot and making a mess of it so having a second go and also muscle-spasm which is actually sufficient to keep the finger pulling on the trigger long enough and hard enough for a second shot to be fired after the person is dead, but this tends to mostly happen with .22 automatic rifles because they are so much easier to fire.

[Passer-by]

PS I'm pretty certain in the other picture of where the casings were found both next to SC were over to her right?