Ballistic analyses relating to Nevill and June Bamber.

[Passer-by]

The rifle was a semi-auto, so bullets were fired in quick succession - "bang, bang, bang, bang, bang"... five into June's body as she lay in bed, or maybe "bang, bang"... as she lay with her head on the pillow, then "bang, bang, bang"... three more as she struggled to get up. Then "bang, bang, bang, bang"... four shots at Nevill as he was getting up and out of bed to retaliate or escape the onslaught. But as you say, Bamber might have alternated all those nine shots between the two victims.

After the fight in the kitchen, he returned upstairs to finish off June with two more head shots as she lay in the doorway, hence DRH 13 and DRH 14 casings assigned to her ending up on the landing and down the first flight of stairs.

Rapid firing of an Anschutz 525...

Yes, if they were both lying in bed I would expect a rational murderer to kick off with shooting Nevill in the head, then June, then Nevill again - but there are no bullet casings in the western half of the room.  Which is a bit surprising, given the ones on/in/under the bed are associated with June.  Coupled with the fact there is none of Nevil's blood in the room I find it hard to believe he was in it.

We can look at how the casings fell for the Twins, who weren't moving, to see that they tend to fall forwards and slightly right.  On that basis I can't see  how DRH14 can have been fired from anywhere other than someone advancing along the corridor from the twin's room, or from within the doorway of the box room facing north back to that corridor:  neither could be as a result of shooting Sheila.

I'm trying to get my head around there being 14 shots upstairs for June and Nevill on one diagram, and 11 on the other:  does anyone know the provenance of these 2 diagrams?  The one with sketches of the bodies looks more authentic, but appears to obfuscate matters by counting 2 halves of one casing -DRH7 - twice under the list of "10 Cartridge Cases (to Ralph and June) 'First' Episode", yet not including DRH5, DRH9 or DRH35 in that list, even whilst stating they are clearly associated with June.

The numbers don't add up, and the location of the casings is strange:  it seems possible to me there could have been more shots fired but they didn't find all the casings.

[Passer-by]

How could he claim Nevill phoned him if both were shot and killed in bed?  He needed Nevill out of bed to be able to pretend Nevill made a phone call to him.  The phone call was integral to his plan so integral he told Julie in advance about such.  The pretend call from Nevill was both his alibi and also a significant part of his effort to frame Sheila.

Saying Nevill called him would not be credible if Nevill had been killed in bed.  It still ended up not being credible because he shot Nevill upstairs before he made it downstairs to the kitchen but Jeremy didn't realize they would figure out he was shot upstairs first.

As for what you choose to believe regarding Neivll making the call:

Hearing gunshots would not prompt him to hang the phone up and hang up the phone or just drop the phone and go check it out.  He would not take the time to hang the phone up and then take it off the hook so no one can call the house while he goes to check.

In the meantime he would have had no reason to call Jeremy.  You ignore that time and again. 

1) Why would he leave Sheila alone so she could go threaten June and the boys and why would June stay in bed?

2) If he felt Sheila needed to be disarmed why would he not do it himself?  Why would he call Jeremy who would take 15 or more minutes to arrive instead of doing it himself?  He was stronger than Jeremy and bigger than Jeremy and of course much stronge rand bigger than Sheila.  Why would he want a weaker person who woudl take a while to get there to do it instead of doing it himself?  With time of the essence you do it yourself.

3) If he was too scared to disarm her himself without any weapons why wouldn't he grab one of the weapons available in the kitchen to use to confront her with?  The kitchen had knives, pokers, guns and other weapons. If extremely worried tyou grab a gun that is the ultimate weapon to use to confront someone with a gun.

4) Jeremy did not get along with Sheila and would have made matters worse not calm her down

5) Jeremy had an answering machine and the phone was on a different floor than his bedroom so Nevill would have gotten an answering machine and had to hope Jeremy would wake up, go to his answering machine, listen to the message and call back.

6) If Jeremy actually received such a call why would he initially do nothing then call Julie?  SOmeone actually receiving such a call would phone 999 or rush right over not do nothing and then when finally deciding to do something to call Julie.  Worse he lied and insisted he immediately called police though we know for sure he called Julie first.  Why did he lie about calling police first?  Quite clearly because he knew that gave away the fact he received no such call and Julie's testimony makes that clear.

You also ignore all the evidence that proves Sheial can't have killed anyone and thus there would be no reaosn for Nevill to make a call saying SHeila was running around with a gun.

But as they say ignorance is bliss and since you can make up any nonsense you feel like you don't really care about what the evidence shows...

Just as a post-script:  if Nevill phoning Bamber was integral to the plan so Nevill had to be up and about, and people who believe Bamber is guilty reckon he hid the phone downstairs necessitating Nevill to rush down to the kitchen to get to the phone, all Bamber would have needed to do was plug the bedroom phone back in by the bed and put the 'hidden' phone into the kitchen socket after everyone was dead.  As he's busy staging Sheila's body with a gun with her fingerprint on it, and he has allegedly been planning this for months, I'd have thought he would have staged Nevill's body with a telephone next to it, off the hook, gripped by his bloodied hand if it was part of his alibi.

This is one of the main problems I have with this:  if Bamber cold bloodedly planned this for weeks - and the prosecution does rely on lots of pre-planning with a bicycle, wetsuit, gloves, phones etc - he would unequivocally have shot his father first.  He used the gun and was a good shot:  he will have known it would not necessarily kill his father, his greatest adversary.  And if his alibi hung on his father phoning him, he would have left his father melodramatically clutching a phone.

[puglove]

Just as a post-script:  if Nevill phoning Bamber was integral to the plan so Nevill had to be up and about, and people who believe Bamber is guilty reckon he hid the phone downstairs necessitating Nevill to rush down to the kitchen to get to the phone, all Bamber would have needed to do was plug the bedroom phone back in by the bed and put the 'hidden' phone into the kitchen socket after everyone was dead.  As he's busy staging Sheila's body with a gun with her fingerprint on it, and he has allegedly been planning this for months, I'd have thought he would have staged Nevill's body with a telephone next to it, off the hook, gripped by his bloodied hand if it was part of his alibi.

This is one of the main problems I have with this:  if Bamber cold bloodedly planned this for weeks - and the prosecution does rely on lots of pre-planning with a bicycle, wetsuit, gloves, phones etc - he would unequivocally have shot his father first.  He used the gun and was a good shot:  he will have known it would not necessarily kill his father, his greatest adversary.  And if his alibi hung on his father phoning him, he would have left his father melodramatically clutching a phone.

I think that Bamber intended to shoot both Ralph and June in their bed but I wonder if, just as he overestimated the power of the gun, he also underestimated how quickly Ralph would wake and react? Maybe Ralph leapt up (or even rolled and fell out of bed) and tried to rush him before Bamber could get a bead on him?

[Holly Goodhead]

Yes, if they were both lying in bed I would expect a rational murderer to kick off with shooting Nevill in the head, then June, then Nevill again - but there are no bullet casings in the western half of the room.  Which is a bit surprising, given the ones on/in/under the bed are associated with June.  Coupled with the fact there is none of Nevil's blood in the room I find it hard to believe he was in it.

We can look at how the casings fell for the Twins, who weren't moving, to see that they tend to fall forwards and slightly right.  On that basis I can't see  how DRH14 can have been fired from anywhere other than someone advancing along the corridor from the twin's room, or from within the doorway of the box room facing north back to that corridor:  neither could be as a result of shooting Sheila.

I'm trying to get my head around there being 14 shots upstairs for June and Nevill on one diagram, and 11 on the other:  does anyone know the provenance of these 2 diagrams?  The one with sketches of the bodies looks more authentic, but appears to obfuscate matters by counting 2 halves of one casing -DRH7 - twice under the list of "10 Cartridge Cases (to Ralph and June) 'First' Episode", yet not including DRH5, DRH9 or DRH35 in that list, even whilst stating they are clearly associated with June.

The numbers don't add up, and the location of the casings is strange:  it seems possible to me there could have been more shots fired but they didn't find all the casings.

Have you read DC Hammersley's trial transcript?  He goes through the casings. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?PHPSESSID=dogc190poctqt8dsaurnmahso0&topic=165.msg1769#msg1769

Are some of the exhibit numbers on the plans for bullets that exited? 

[Passer-by]

I think that Bamber intended to shoot both Ralph and June in their bed but I wonder if, just as he overestimated the power of the gun, he also underestimated how quickly Ralph would wake and react? Maybe Ralph leapt up (or even rolled and fell out of bed) and tried to rush him before Bamber could get a bead on him?

Certainly, which is why I find it odd that all the casings are over between June's body and the wardrobe:  what's Nevill doing over there?  If I was Bamber I wouldn't have cycled over in the dark, climbed through the window and fumbled  around in the dark:  I'd have said "Good night every body!" whilst they were at the dining table and then snuck upstairs and hid in that little dressing room between Nevill and the boys:  then waited until I could hear Nevill snoring before sliding round the door and slugging several shots in his head point-blank.  And I'd have made sure the yap dog accidentally ate slug pellets the day before (I can credit my father-in-law with that plot line - twice!  ) so it didn't give the game away.  (For that matter the whole idea he could enter the house and the dog wouldn't alert everyone sits ill given the racket it kicked up for hours afterwards)

He would shoot Nevill first. If he could shoot a sleeping child sucking their thumb he'd have had no problem shooting a child running around screaming, and the children didn't have to be anywhere in particular at all for the purposes of the story that Sheila had gone berserk.

So what's Nevill doing over by the wardrobe?  If the shooter was over by the door and Nevill had thrown himself over June and then slid between the bed and the wardrobe he would have been shot in the back and right shoulder, so he can't have done that.  Shots to left shoulder/arm and upper chest suggest to me the murderer was aiming at a moving target, possibly the head, but Nevill had his left arm up to defend himself:  this is the action I would expect him to take if he ran into the room from the landing over to June.  At this point the murderer would not be able to exit to the landing because of Nevill approaching, so would have moved back into the room nearer to Nevill's side of the bed:  the bed being in between them would account for Nevill not rushing at the assailant, and the chair by the door would be next to Nevill's left hand, hence he would not have been able to grab it as a weapon.  If Nevill had been coming round from his side of the bed to the attacker by the doorway, the attacker could have retreated to the landing, or Nevill would have had to say 'excuse me please!' to squeeze round to be between June and the wardrobe and the attacker would have had no problem getting a close headshot - and the chair would have been immediately near Nevill's right hand whilst his left arm was defending his head and he would have had no problem swinging it into the gun and then the life-or-death struggle would have occurred there, not down in the kitchen.

So I really don't think Nevill was in bed, he must have entered the room and retreated.  Which messes with the idea he was fast asleep so didn't hear Bamber climb through a window downstairs - which adds weight to the theory it was Sheila.

[puglove]

Certainly, which is why I find it odd that all the casings are over between Sheila's body and the wardrobe:  what's Nevill doing over there?  If I was Bamber I wouldn't have cycled over in the dark, climbed through the window and fumbled  around in the dark:  I'd have said "Good night every body!" whilst they were at the dining table and then snuck upstairs and hid in that little dressing room between Nevill and the boys:  then waited until I could hear Nevill snoring before sliding round the door and slugging several shots in his head point-blank.  And I'd have made sure the yap dog accidentally ate slug pellets the day before (I can credit my father-in-law with that plot line - twice!  ) so it didn't give the game away.  (For that matter the whole idea he could enter the house and the dog wouldn't alert everyone sits ill given the racket it kicked up for hours afterwards)

He would shoot Nevill first. If he could shoot a sleeping child sucking their thumb he'd have had no problem shooting a child running around screaming, and the children didn't have to be anywhere in particular at all for the purposes of the story that Sheila had gone berserk.

So what's Nevill doing over by the wardrobe?  If the shooter was over by the door and Nevill had thrown himself over June and then slid between the bed and the wardrobe he would have been shot in the back and right shoulder, so he can't have done that.  Shots to left shoulder/arm and upper chest suggest to me the murderer was aiming at a moving target, possibly the head, but Nevill had his left arm up to defend himself:  this is the action I would expect him to take if he ran into the room from the landing over to June.  At this point the murderer would not be able to exit to the landing because of Nevill approaching, so would have moved back into the room nearer to Nevill's side of the bed:  the bed being in between them would account for Nevill not rushing at the assailant, and the chair by the door would be next to Nevill's left hand, hence he would not have been able to grab it as a weapon.  If Nevill had been coming round from his side of the bed to the attacker by the doorway, the attacker could have retreated to the landing, or Nevill would have had to say 'excuse me please!' to squeeze round to be between June and the wardrobe and the attacker would have had no problem getting a close headshot - and the chair would have been immediately near Nevill's right hand whilst his left arm was defending his head and he would have had no problem swinging it into the gun and then the life-or-death struggle would have occurred there, not down in the kitchen.

So I really don't think Nevill was in bed, he must have entered the room and retreated.  Which messes with the idea he was fast asleep so didn't hear Bamber climb through a window downstairs - which adds weight to the theory it was Sheila.

Hmm. Interesting points, there. (She said, a bit patronisingly!)

The only thing I can be sure of, here, is that slug pellets wouldn't knock a dog out that quickly. Not even a hedgehog. But seriously, well done you!     B+

[Passer-by]

  hop over to the Dewani board if you want a masterclass in patronising me ;-)

PS, about the slug pellets:  my father in law managed to leave them lying around the farm where the dog was - twice.  Regret Fido was vomiting within minutes on both occasions and snuffed it before the vet arrived the second time.  The next dog was never allowed out of the house unaccompanied and my father-in-law assumed the proportions of a cartoon baddie:  murder was definitely suspected!

[Passer-by]

Hmm. Interesting points, there. (She said, a bit patronisingly!)

The only thing I can be sure of, here, is that slug pellets wouldn't knock a dog out that quickly. Not even a hedgehog. But seriously, well done you!     B+

Oops:  I accidentally said between Sheila's body and the wardrobe, when I meant June's (ie June's side of the bed) - edited the OP!

[Holly Goodhead]

Unfortunately we don't a full transcript of the trial but surely there's at the very least a good argument that NB was not in the bedroom when June was shot?  The lack of any blood and casings in the areas to be expected if NB was shot his side of the bed or at the foot of the bed suggest he wasn't in the bedroom other than stood at the doorway facing the entrance to the bedroom ie looking in not out while the perp was within the bedroom and looking out towards the hall.

It seems to me the prosecutions case went largely unchallenged at trial.  Some will argue its difficult to counter a strong case from the prosecution.  Was it strong or was the defence exceptionally poor?   

CAL's book P360: "Vanezis was next to be called.  'It was reasonably straightforward really, from my point of view,' he reflects.  'I had a fair cross-examination from Mr Rivlin, who was a very mild-mannered man, although he asked quite searching questions.  Who wants to be represented in court by "a very mild-mannered man"?  I would want to smell FEAR!

How can we measure GR's competence as a QC?  I guess overall the prosecution wins more times than loses as the case would have to look good on paper to get to court in the first place?  Then the % wins amongst defending QC's should be similar based on not guilty?  If one defending QC is winning more or losing more than average then that might be down to the ability or lack of ability of the individual QC?  Does that make sense?   &%+((£

The worrying thing is that GR quit advocacy shortly after the WHF trial to take on the role of a full-time judge.  I say worrying as maybe he realised himself after WHF that advocacy wasn't his game?  Whereas the prosecuting QC Anthony Arlidge is still at it and he's in his late 70's!

[Passer-by]

I think Bamber's own silk thought he was guilty so didn't defend him well, nor challenge enough evidence.  I'm sure most people then would have assumed a suicide can't shoot themselves twice - whereas even the pathologist had experience of it.  Then everyone went looking for evidence of a murder and found it, so presented with the moderator suddenly the double-shot suicide looks like murder and round and round it goes.

[Holly Goodhead]

I think Bamber's own silk thought he was guilty so didn't defend him well, nor challenge enough evidence.  I'm sure most people then would have assumed a suicide can't shoot themselves twice - whereas even the pathologist had experience of it.  Then everyone went looking for evidence of a murder and found it, so presented with the moderator suddenly the double-shot suicide looks like murder and round and round it goes.

What you're saying makes a lot of sense but surely these people are trained to give it their best shot whatever their personal views? 

“Everybody asks me that,” says this expert cross-examiner, looking sternly over the top of his half-moon glasses. “The answer is that you don’t know if someone’s guilty. You take instructions from your client. You think: 'Oh no, this sounds really unlikely.’ Then you test it and find out that what he says might actually be true. A jury might believe him. So you give it everything you’ve got.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9716069/Devils-advocate-Michael-Turner-prepares-for-his-toughest-case.html

I've read that GR thought the case against JB was weak and was surprised when the jury reached a guilty verdict!?  GR has since apparently put in many unpaid hours supporting JB I assume from a legal perspective.

[Passer-by]

What you're saying makes a lot of sense but surely these people are trained to give it their best shot whatever their personal views? 

“Everybody asks me that,” says this expert cross-examiner, looking sternly over the top of his half-moon glasses. “The answer is that you don’t know if someone’s guilty. You take instructions from your client. You think: 'Oh no, this sounds really unlikely.’ Then you test it and find out that what he says might actually be true. A jury might believe him. So you give it everything you’ve got.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9716069/Devils-advocate-Michael-Turner-prepares-for-his-toughest-case.html

I've read that GR thought the case against JB was weak and was surprised when the jury reached a guilty verdict!?  GR has since apparently put in many unpaid hours supporting JB I assume from a legal perspective.

I think a lot of them were at the start of their careers and still honing their skills.  As for the lawyers:  they aren't allowed to defend someone who has given them cause to believe they are guilty - and money is money.  I think it's to their credit if some of them still work for him for free, but I don't believe his barrister does?  I imagine some of them would like not to draw attention to the case now, as it doesn't do them any credit.

[Holly Goodhead]

I think a lot of them were at the start of their careers and still honing their skills.  As for the lawyers:  they aren't allowed to defend someone who has given them cause to believe they are guilty - and money is money.  I think it's to their credit if some of them still work for him for free, but I don't believe his barrister does?  I imagine some of them would like not to draw attention to the case now, as it doesn't do them any credit.

Agreed.  I see the defence as being more inept than the police/investigation.  In fact I am not sure the police could have done much more given the circumstances ie the fact SC and JB both had a legitimate right to be at WHF and handle all the contents?

[Holly Goodhead]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUaZ-x9t2_o

http://voiceofdetroit.net/wp-content/uploads/ShellCasingStudy.pdf

So it appears the idea that cartridges eject to the right is a myth.

[Myster]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUaZ-x9t2_o

http://voiceofdetroit.net/wp-content/uploads/ShellCasingStudy.pdf

So it appears the idea that cartridges eject to the right is a myth.

Not so... there's a thin metal deflector plate just behind of the ejection port of an Anschutz 525 which forces the shell forward and to the right, whereas there wasn't any on that handgun in your link. Which is why they flew all over the place; to the side, backwards and forwards. So I think the hatched area in one of the WHF plans showing where the bullets were most likely fired from is a reasonable assumption.