Witnesses claimed to have seen Robert Murat the night Maddie disappeared.

[ShiningInLuz]

Agreed, it's retrospective mistaken identification. But it's important to realise that FP RO ROB DP CP SB [Name removed] and AW were not deliberately lying - they did see a different man that night, who is bilingual and (to people who know neither of them, and none of those 8 witnesses did) vaguely resembles RM. I've already pointed people to DP's rog statement, he saw and briefly spoke with this man, thought it might be RM, but was certainly not sure of that, which is why he did not fly out to Portugal on 15th June.

May I ask how you know this man is bilingual?

From memory, Fiona Payne said something along the lines of RM explained he was bilingual and got stuck in when one of the T9 returned (but the T9 statement says nothing about such a meeting).

If the bilingual bit drops out, then all we've got is a man vaguely like Murat seemingly rubber-necking on the night.  And lots of people rubber-necked in the days after the incident.  Hence my interest in the bilingual bit, as that takes things further.

[Mr Gray]

Which would suggest that FP, RO and ROB were adamant that the man they saw was RM and didn't change their stance after the stand-off.

it is not a crime to say you believed you saw someone......hence the supposed lawsuit never happened

[pegasus]

May I ask how you know this man is bilingual?

From memory, Fiona Payne said something along the lines of RM explained he was bilingual and got stuck in when one of the T9 returned (but the T9 statement says nothing about such a meeting).

If the bilingual bit drops out, then all we've got is a man vaguely like Murat seemingly rubber-necking on the night.  And lots of people rubber-necked in the days after the incident.  Hence my interest in the bilingual bit, as that takes things further.

The man that night (whom some people mistook for RM) is bilingual because several statements say so, for example

"... there was somebody who was was translating for us that evening who I briefly chatted to, stood next to a policeman, that I thought to be Robert Murat but I would never say conclusively that that was ..." (DP rog)

[faithlilly]

The man that night (whom some people mistook for RM) is bilingual because several statements say so, for example

"... there was somebody who was was translating for us that evening who I briefly chatted to, stood next to a policeman, that I thought to be Robert Murat but I would never say conclusively that that was ..." (DP rog)

By the rogatory interviews ROB was back peddling with regard to Murat and DP was distancing himself from any sort of identification too.

[Alfred R Jones]

Why ask a question then answer it yourself ?
T.O.W.I.A

Is it against forum rules?  It was a rhetorical question.  I posed it, knowing full well what the answer would be from the "sceptics" on the board.  If you have a problem with that then I suggest you S.I.W.T.S.D.S.

[Alfred R Jones]

As it would be with Gerry.

And your point is...?

[Alfred R Jones]

His mother's statement is that he was home with her from about 8pm to about midnight and that he never left the house in that period.

Therefore, for there to be anything in this would require Murat to lie, and his mother to lie, and we are in conspiracy territory.

It's a lot more believable that some people who did not know him at the time, but became alerted to him later, simply mistakenly identified him.

Can we also apply this same logic to other witness statements?  I say yes, but what about those who choose to believe Mr Smith was a 100% right in his identification, and not just 60-80%?

[ShiningInLuz]

Can we also apply this same logic to other witness statements?  I say yes, but what about those who choose to believe Mr Smith was a 100% right in his identification, and not just 60-80%?

The partial identification of Gerry as Smithman by the Smith elders can be trashed for stronger reasons.

[pegasus]

By the rogatory interviews ROB was back peddling with regard to Murat and DP was distancing himself from any sort of identification too.

I wonder if Murat was discussed at the Rothley meeting ?

Yes ROB backpeddled reasonably in rog but still didn't realise he is merging two different men.
DP saw and spoke with the man but was never sure it was RM - that's why he was not there accusing RM at the Jun 15/16 confrontation.
Manager SB thought it was RM but then realised it wasn't and that's why she was not at the Jun 15/16 confrontation.

[misty]

The man that night (whom some people mistook for RM) is bilingual because several statements say so, for example

"... there was somebody who was was translating for us that evening who I briefly chatted to, stood next to a policeman, that I thought to be Robert Murat but I would never say conclusively that that was ..." (DP rog)

I can find no reference in any of the GNR officers' statements to a translator other than Sylvia B.
I can find no reference in other English people's statements to a male translator that night/.
"I was talking with Robert MURAT. He was err somebody that I would not a hundred percent say that I saw the night before but there was somebody who was also err who was translating for us that evening who I you know briefly chatted to, stood next to a Policeman, that I you know thought to be Robert MURAT but I would never say conclusively that that was Robert MURAT. And then but I just said I'm not, in my mind, I'm not dealing with him I'm getting much better with the other lady you know because they were just, you know pontificating around the area and I just wanted direct answers" ......the DP rog quote in its entire context.

"

[Alfred R Jones]

The partial identification of Gerry as Smithman by the Smith elders can be trashed for stronger reasons.

But the reason you have described a propos Murat is surely also valid in this instance, yes?

[pegasus]

[Name removed] and AW saw not-RM late night 3rd, then saw not-RM again daytime morning 4th, then saw RM later daytime 4th. They subconsciously in memory merged the two men into one. That's how the ridiculous pythonesque accusation of  "Saying one needs to change one's clothes when one has already changed them" came about.

[misty]

[Name removed] and AW saw not-RM late night 3rd, then saw not-RM again daytime morning 4th, then saw RM later daytime 4th. They subconsciously in memory merged the two men into one. That's how the ridiculous pythonesque accusation of  "Saying one needs to change one's clothes when one has already changed them" came about.

That assertion is dependent on the relative distance of the viewer from the source at the time of identification.

[pegasus]

I can find no reference in any of the GNR officers' statements to a translator other than Sylvia B.
I can find no reference in other English people's statements to a male translator that night/.
"I was talking with Robert MURAT. He was err somebody that I would not a hundred percent say that I saw the night before but there was somebody who was also err who was translating for us that evening who I you know briefly chatted to, stood next to a Policeman, that I you know thought to be Robert MURAT but I would never say conclusively that that was Robert MURAT. And then but I just said I'm not, in my mind, I'm not dealing with him I'm getting much better with the other lady you know because they were just, you know pontificating around the area and I just wanted direct answers" ......the DP rog quote in its entire context.

"

The rogs of DP RO FP ROB, and the confrontation statements of RO FP ROB, all indicate that the man they saw that night was translating.

[misty]

The rogs of DP RO FP ROB, and the confrontation statements of RO FP ROB, all indicate that the man they saw that night was translating.

You have already dismissed their identification.
What other independent sources were there?