Author Topic: Cadaver Dog Alerts, Missing Person Turns Up Alive.  (Read 38871 times)

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Offline Anna

Re: Cadaver Dog Alerts, Missing Person Turns Up Alive.
« Reply #105 on: January 06, 2015, 11:58:09 AM »
Why does Eddie go in first and not the blood dog Keela?

There are many threads on the dogs....with this answer.
 If the dog is deployed to find a cadaver or the scent of such, it will search first. but since Eddie also alerts to blood, Keela would be sent to check his findings, as she only alerts to blood.
If both alert to a spot= Blood. If Eddie alerts to a spot, but not Keela= Cadaver odour.
There are other reasons why a dog may alert, such as cross contamination.
Dead people do not bleed by the way.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline lordpookles

Re: Cadaver Dog Alerts, Missing Person Turns Up Alive.
« Reply #106 on: January 06, 2015, 12:01:16 PM »
Hmm, but for instance say you suffered a neck wound. Jugular cut. A lot of blood obviously. At some point you would die, but blood would continue to come out for some time after death, no?

I assume dead people don't bleed, because the heart has stopped pumping blood?

Offline Anna

Re: Cadaver Dog Alerts, Missing Person Turns Up Alive.
« Reply #107 on: January 06, 2015, 12:04:43 PM »
Hmm, but for instance say you suffered a neck wound. Jugular cut. A lot of blood obviously. At some point you would die, but blood would continue to come out for some time after death, no?

I assume dead people don't bleed, because the heart has stopped pumping blood?

That is correct LP. That blood would be from a living person. IMO
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

Re: Cadaver Dog Alerts, Missing Person Turns Up Alive.
« Reply #108 on: January 06, 2015, 12:06:07 PM »
Why does Eddie go in first and not the blood dog Keela?

Because Eddie was the GP and Keela was the haematologist.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Cadaver Dog Alerts, Missing Person Turns Up Alive.
« Reply #109 on: January 06, 2015, 12:06:46 PM »
If you read Martin Grime's statements you will see that he clearly states that both his dogs will alert to blood from a living person.

Sorry I'm no good at links - but I can assure you that is what he said.   IIRC that info. has been posted many times before.

It has, he did and you are right ...

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Cadaver Dog Alerts, Missing Person Turns Up Alive.
« Reply #110 on: January 06, 2015, 12:07:54 PM »
Because Eddie was the GP and Keela was the haematologist.

 *&*%£

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Cadaver Dog Alerts, Missing Person Turns Up Alive.
« Reply #111 on: January 06, 2015, 12:10:38 PM »
*&*%£

and let's not forget, your an expert in dog handling. 8((()*/ *&*%£

Offline Benice

Re: Cadaver Dog Alerts, Missing Person Turns Up Alive.
« Reply #112 on: January 06, 2015, 12:11:34 PM »
There are many threads on the dogs....with this answer.
 If the dog is deployed to find a cadaver or the scent of such, it will search first. but since Eddie also alerts to blood, Keela would be sent to check his findings, as she only alerts to blood.
If both alert to a spot= Blood. If Eddie alerts to a spot, but not Keela= Cadaver odour.
There are other reasons why a dog may alert, such as cross contamination.
Dead people do not bleed by the way.


Agreed.    In fact if Eddie made no alerts at a location, Grime did not bother to send Keela in - because he knew that if there had been any blood then Eddie would have alerted.

I think it has been a major mistake to refer to Eddie as a Cadaver dog - which clearly implies that whenever he alerted that means a cadaver must have been present at that spot.   That is not true and IMO that description has been the main cause of so much of the misunderstanding by so many people re his alerts.    Amaral being one of those people.






The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Cadaver Dog Alerts, Missing Person Turns Up Alive.
« Reply #113 on: January 06, 2015, 12:13:32 PM »
Hmmm.

In Jersey, he alerted to sex clean-up tissues and Grime stated that that was within his training parameters. Keela also reacted to those tissues. However, as it's not clear whether he wrote up his notes as the dogs reacted, there is no way of knowing whether Eddie was reacting to sex fluids or whether Keela's subsequent reaction meant that he may have reacted to microscopic traces of decomposing blood.

In either event, the courting couple were presumably not dead at the time. Grime did state in his rog that Eddie would react to dried blood from a living person. I have never found anything to substantiate that such dogs can distinguish between blood from a living person and post-mortem leakage. Indeed, how would one go about such an experiment?

On the other hand, I'm not convinced that Eddie would have reacted to nail clippings, at least not in normal household quantities and situations. He may also have been taught to ignore toilet bowls and the usual contents of bathroom waste bins. A visual inspection by a human would give the main clue as to whether there was anything suspicious or not.

Back on the other side again, cadaver dogs have been confused by searching for a potential victim in peat bog areas due to methane gas emissions (I did post a link to this at some point on here). If that's the case, such a dog may ignore recent "bathroom" traces, but then how would such a dog ignore the stench in alleyways, underground stations, etc.,  without being directed by a human's guidance as to suspicious areas?

Only body fluids MIXED with BLOOD.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Carana

Re: Cadaver Dog Alerts, Missing Person Turns Up Alive.
« Reply #114 on: January 06, 2015, 12:25:27 PM »
Only body fluids MIXED with BLOOD.

That refers to the description of Keela, not Eddie.

Offline Carana

Re: Cadaver Dog Alerts, Missing Person Turns Up Alive.
« Reply #115 on: January 06, 2015, 12:27:29 PM »

Agreed.    In fact if Eddie made no alerts at a location, Grime did not bother to send Keela in - because he knew that if there had been any blood then Eddie would have alerted.

I think it has been a major mistake to refer to Eddie as a Cadaver dog - which clearly implies that whenever he alerted that means a cadaver must have been present at that spot.   That is not true and IMO that description has been the main cause of so much of the misunderstanding by so many people re his alerts.    Amaral being one of those people.

Agreed, If Eddie had been called a human decomp / human residue dog, it might have avoided so many assumptions.

Offline Carana

Re: Cadaver Dog Alerts, Missing Person Turns Up Alive.
« Reply #116 on: January 06, 2015, 12:57:28 PM »
Yeah, but sex clean up tissues is not a good example as you state there is likely to be some blood in there and the fact they alerted is unsurprising imo. If the dogs also alert to body fluids such as saliva, semen etc from a living person then we are in different territory altogether. In fact it would be hard to say what the purpose of the dogs is at all. As far I've been able to ascertain the dog only alerts to cadaver odour plus blood.

Much of what i've been able to find out is from a different case and a Q&A from a cadaver dog handler and supposed expert on another forum. She stated explicitly that a dog that is trained to just detect cadaver odour and not blood like Eddie will only alert to that scent and can quite easily discriminate between blood from a dead person and that from a living person simply because of the decomposition. It bugs me that I have to rely on the internet to find this stuff out, but I have found it very hard to acquire any official information about this like a reference book for instance... In the case of the McCanns we know no-one died in the apartment for instance prior to Madeleine's disappearance, but do we know if any of the furniture is second hand and may have been in contact with a dead person? Anyway, these alerts can be misleading due to factors like this and transference of the scent which is supposed to be relatively easy. Add into this the possibility of false alerts and that's why forensic corroboration is vital.

Anyway, regarding the methane point. Perhaps this is a factor that can confuse the dog or mask the smell. However, in a bathroom there would have to be somebody with a serious stomach upset I would assume to give off sufficient methane quanities  8)-)))

There doesn't seem to be a consensus on what such dogs react to, their nomenclature, training parameters, desensitisation, etc., and the science and training methods change all the time.

How many professional dog handlers are likely to admit that their dogs screwed up?

On a different point, there is no way of knowing whether there was innocent contamination or not. Grime and Harrison did point this out, but the initial PJ team didn't seem to have investigated alternative explanations beyond informal questions as to whether anyone else was known to have died there.

I don't place the blame entirely at Amaral & co.,'s doorstep. It's not clear from the files whether Grime had fully informed the initial team verbally concerning caveats once they actually met.

Offline lordpookles

Re: Cadaver Dog Alerts, Missing Person Turns Up Alive.
« Reply #117 on: January 06, 2015, 01:05:01 PM »
It's definitely a complicated situation without forensics to verify exactly what the alerts may mean and as you say there could be innocent explanations.

What I think is very relevant is the dogs alerted only at the McCanns apartment where the child disappeared. Something else that is relevant imo is there was material recovered at those locations although it was inconclusive. IMO this doesn't mean the McCanns did it necessarily. The time that a body would have needed to be there to leave cadaver odour has been said to be two hours. However, I've read more recent reports, which I can't find right now I'm afraid that this time may be as little as ten minutes - more internet hearsay, sorry. Does anyone have information regarding the amount of time the body needs to be in situ?

It will be interesting to see what new forensics might bring to the whole situation. The main question for police I imagine is should they test now and possibly destroy remaining samples or wait another ten years when techniques will likely be even more sensitive/accurate?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 01:07:30 PM by lordpookles »

Offline Anna

Re: Cadaver Dog Alerts, Missing Person Turns Up Alive.
« Reply #118 on: January 06, 2015, 01:28:52 PM »
Eddie detected cadaver scent months later. SY are digging for a body. Did you miss it? They're spending millions on searching for the body for no reason. No way!

It's called "elimination" PF.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Anna

Re: Cadaver Dog Alerts, Missing Person Turns Up Alive.
« Reply #119 on: January 06, 2015, 01:37:13 PM »
They may know but that doesn't mean they're going to tell us until they get the evidence required to successfully convict.

Wrong Thread..way off topic PF. Nothing at all to do with dogs, alerts or people being found alive.

Now we must get back on topic please.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato