Cadaver Dog Alerts, Missing Person Turns Up Alive.

[Alfred R Jones]

Using Dog Apologist logic Eddie a "cadaver" dog can never, ever give a false positive because, even if no body is found, nor any a molecule of bodily fluids from a dead or living person found, we cant dismiss the alert because

"you know like mebbe a dead body had one time lain where the dog barked.  Or mebbe a dead person came into contact with some of the furniture,  or mebbe clothes that a person had died in were then removed and hung in a cupboard. Or mebbe the person in whose house the dog barked (the shifty guy who seemed a bit iffy) well mebbe he murdered some other unspecified missing person and laid them out there. You never know, eh?  Anything's possible so we can never dismiss the doggy's alert because dogs don't lie". 

This is so absurd it makes the whole process meaningless.  Dogs and their handlers can and do get things wrong, as highlighted in the Gina Dejesus case.  It's not necessary to find any more examples, that case alone proves the point.

[Lace]

It could even be that Eddie alerted to a scent of blood,   that something with blood on had been in the wardrobe or on the floor.

[Wonderfulspam]

It could even be that Eddie alerted to a scent of blood,   that something with blood on had been in the wardrobe or on the floor.

Like, maybe, a dead kid, or something.

[Lace]

What a cadaver dog smells is very complicated -


Unfortunately, in such a situation the trier of fact may easily be misled as to both the accuracy and precision of the dog's actions: Accuracy in the sense that the dog (depending upon its level of training) may be reacting to something other than residual scent from decomposed human tissue; precision in that the dog may be reacting correctly to the scent of decomposed human tissue, but imprecise in the sense that the dog is not differentiating between whose decomposed human tissue is giving the scent. Further, there may be legitimate reasons for the scent being there: someone may have been injured and left bloody clothing there, someone may have left a used sanitary napkin, etc. Our research demonstrates that residual scent from decomposed human tissue persists in a closed building for many months at levels sufficient to cause a trained dog to alert.

[Anna]

Can we please return to the topic of the thread

I will be deleting those posts that I feel are unconnected to the topic, in past posts and any that are unconnected in any future posts.

I Thank you, in advance of your co-operation.

[Wonderfulspam]

Your voice on this forum is most refreshing, thank you for posting here.  I agree that there is nothing wrong examining the dog alerts in theory,

but

a) they have been examined to the moon and back several dozen times in the last 7 years - the "sceptic" position is firmly that the dogs are never wrong, never, ever, ever whilst the non-sceptic position is: well actually yes they can be and here's the proof (which is then either ignored, belittled, or dismissed by the dog apologists)

and

b) this thread was not started in any sincere attempt at examining anything.

How often do they turn up alive, following dog alerts?

Not very.

[Alfred R Jones]

How often do they turn up alive, following dog alerts?

Not very.

Often enough to prove that it can and does happen, that's all that really matters.

[ferryman]

Often enough to prove that it can and does happen, that's all that really matters.

Eddie alerted to spots of Gerry's blood in the Renault Scenic.

Gerry turned up alive ....

[ferryman]

Shakara Dickens, of Memphis USA, reported in 2010 that she had given up her daughter Lauryn Dickens for adoption, but the various stories turned out to be false. A dog identified cadaver odour in the house and in the boot of the car, and despite defence arguments, she was found guilty of Murder.  No body has been found.

Back in March Dickens was convicted of Lauryn’s murder. This past week at her sentencing hearing she admitted to every detail.

She said that she was frustrated that she couldn’t find a baby sitter and started crying. Then Lauryn started crying. Instead of comforting her which is what most normal mothers do she put her hand over Lauryn’s nose and mouth until she passed out. She removed her hand and Lauryn started crying again and Dickens continued to suffocate her.

When Lauryn was dead Dickens put her body in a trash bag and threw it in a dumpster two apartment complexes away. She didn’t go back to the dumpster but watched as the dumpster was emptied.

We're discussing whether anyone has ever turned up alive after a dog-alert.

Someone did.

Gerry McCann.

[Alfred R Jones]

this is not an example of someone turning up alive after a cadaver alert.  We are all aware that missing people often do turn up dead after a dog alert but that is not what this thread is about.  If this thread is making you feel insecure why not start a new one which you can fill with canine success stories to make you feel better?

[Alfred R Jones]

Remind me Alfred,  how Smithman, the yards prime suspect, fit's in with your logical plausible abduction thesis.

Oh yeah. that's right, he can't!

Nonsensical, rubbish, off-topic, strawman post, very typical of Spam.

[Anna]

Can we please adhere to the topic.

As you can see I am in the process of weeding this thread and would appreciate no further Off topic posts, while I do so. Thank you

[Carana]

This thread could go around and around in circles forever. I looked up several cases of missing people being found alive, but they don't mention whether cadaver dogs were ever used or not. The only way of finding an answer would be to send off FOIs (or perhaps find existing ones).

In the Shannon case, the dog did alert correctly, but the alert was irrelevant.

Even if 10 or 20 cases were found, the argument would still be that there is no way of knowing whether a dog correctly alerted, but to a death that was irrelevant to the case in question.

Then there is all the confusion of what "cadaver" scent actually means in the sniffer dog context. It does NOT necessarily mean the scent of a deceased human being - but the scent of decomposing human remains (minus whatever various handlers choose to eliminate from training parameters). (A side issue is the question of confusion with decomposing animal tissue in species in which many of the compounds may also be present...)

The apartment appears to have been shut between when the last of the post-disappearance occupants left and the arrival of the dogs.

No one seems to have questioned the last cleaning personnel to have entered that apartment. There could have been bloody plasters left lying around and removed prior to the dogs arriving from previous occupants for all anyone knows.




 

[faithlilly]

This thread could go around and around in circles forever. I looked up several cases of missing people being found alive, but they don't mention whether cadaver dogs were ever used or not. The only way of finding an answer would be to send off FOIs (or perhaps find existing ones).

In the Shannon case, the dog did alert correctly, but the alert was irrelevant.

Even if 10 or 20 cases were found, the argument would still be that there is no way of knowing whether a dog correctly alerted, but to a death that was irrelevant to the case in question.

Then there is all the confusion of what "cadaver" scent actually means in the sniffer dog context. It does NOT necessarily mean the scent of a deceased human being - but the scent of decomposing human remains (minus whatever various handlers choose to eliminate from training parameters). (A side issue is the question of confusion with decomposing animal tissue in species in which many of the compounds may also be present...)

The apartment appears to have been shut between when the last of the post-disappearance occupants left and the arrival of the dogs.

No one seems to have questioned the last cleaning personnel to have entered that apartment. There could have been bloody plasters left lying around and removed prior to the dogs arriving from previous occupants for all anyone knows.

Wouldn't Keela have alerted to the places where the plasters had lain ?

I'm afraid no matter how supporters try there is no getting around the fact that Eddie alerted in the bedroom, Keela didn't therefore the alert must have been for cadaver scent.

[Alfred R Jones]

Wouldn't Keela have alerted to the places where the plasters had lain ?

I'm afraid no matter how supporters try there is no getting around the fact that Eddie alerted in the bedroom, Keela didn't therefore the alert must have been for cadaver scent.

Yeah, cos dogs and their handlers are 100% infallible and never ever get things wrong, isn't that right Faithlilly?