Holiday firm leaves resort where Madeleine McCann disappeared.

[Eleanor]

True - I was thinking more of the Millennium restaurant and breakfast

Sorry.  I jumped to a conclusion.

[Brietta]

Cost possibly if a baby sitter was required?  On the other hand, hasn't it been said that getting three sleeping children from the crèche above OC main reception the several hundred metres back to the apartment would have been a bit of an ordeal every night and especially so if the parents were tired and slightly intoxicated?

Remembering that they didn't go back to the Millennium Restaurant because it was felt that it too was just a tad too far to have to go with three young ones in tow each morning.  If I'm honest I wouldn't blame them since when you go on holiday with young children you expect the facilities to be on hand and not hundreds of metres away.

The spread out nature of the accommodation in Praia Da Luz did give it particular problems.

If a risk assessment had been carried out for apartment 5a, I am sure the deficiencies of the accommodation would have stuck out like a sore thumb.

(a)   the isolated front door 
(b)   the high, overhanging trees at the front giving plenty of cover 
(c)   poor lighting, exacerbated at one time by a broken security light. 
(d)   easy public access to the property from the main road front, side and the lane at the back 
(e)   patio doors which did not lock from the outside   
(f)   insecurity of front door keys

I wonder how aware the holiday party were that not all the accommodation around them was part of a holiday complex but private residences?  A non sequitur perhaps, but not realising the open nature of the apartments might have been a contributory factor to them lowering their guard.

[Anna]

The spread out nature of the accommodation in Praia Da Luz did give it particular problems.

If a risk assessment had been carried out for apartment 5a, I am sure the deficiencies of the accommodation would have stuck out like a sore thumb.

(a)   the isolated front door 
(b)   the high, overhanging trees at the front giving plenty of cover 
(c)   poor lighting, exacerbated at one time by a broken security light. 
(d)   easy public access to the property from the main road front, side and the lane at the back 
(e)   patio doors which did not lock from the outside   
(f)   insecurity of front door keys

I wonder how aware the holiday party were that not all the accommodation around them was part of a holiday complex but private residences?  A non sequitur perhaps, but not realising the open nature of the apartments might have been a contributory factor to them lowering their guard.

Very well put together, Brietta.
Not forgetting, the shutters that did not lock down to make the window area secure.

[Bert Singe]

Very well put together, Brietta.
Not forgetting, the shutters that did not lock down to make the window area secure.

I disagree.

The key factor that's missing is the parents selfishishness in not wanting the children present. I also posted this last night but it seems a moderator has removed it. What forum rules does this break?

[Anna]

I disagree.

The key factor that's missing is the parents selfishishness in not wanting the children present. I also posted this last night but it seems a moderator has removed it. What forum rules does this break?

Sorry but I cannot answer that. Was it perhaps, Off topic?

[faithlilly]

Rhetoric like this is the very opposite of that needed to help. You and the newspapers are actually allied in working against Operation Grange's stated objective.

British police can't do a thing in Portugal on their own as you know. The xenophobia is hardly going to help them is it.

Maybe that's the point Lyall.

[Bert Singe]

Sorry but I cannot answer that. Was it perhaps, Off topic?

Is it off topic?

[ferryman]

I disagree.

The key factor that's missing is the parents selfishishness in not wanting the children present. I also posted this last night but it seems a moderator has removed it. What forum rules does this break?

I would say such a remark is off-topic because it is a subjective judgment on parenting choices and the reasons for those choices without a shred of verifiable evidence to back it up.

No one knows what the reasons were for choosing to use crèche facilities or clubs during the holiday.

The suggestion of "selfishness" as the motive is just subjective guesswork.

Nothing more.

[Anna]

Is it off topic?

IMO, Yes.

[Bert Singe]

So is it to be accepted without debate that "open nature of the apartments might have been a contributory factor to them lowering their guard"?

IMO the parents selfishness in not wanting the children present could be an equally valid reason for leaving them in the apartment but it seems when put as a counter argument to "open nature of the apartments might have been a contributory factor to them lowering their guard" cries of off topic arise, posts are removed and it remains a given that their guard was lowered when the facts may actually be that they just didn't want the kids there.

[Alfred R Jones]

So is it to be accepted without debate that "open nature of the apartments might have been a contributory factor to them lowering their guard"?

IMO the parents selfishness in not wanting the children present could be an equally valid reason for leaving them in the apartment but it seems when put as a counter argument to "open nature of the apartments might have been a contributory factor to them lowering their guard" cries of off topic arise, posts are removed and it remains a given that their guard was lowered when the facts may actually be that they just didn't want the kids there.

What do you mean "the parents didn't want their kids there"? Maybe they wanted their kids to get a good night's sleep and not have to stay up well past their bedtimes listening to adults drone on for hours?  What bloody selfish b........s! 

[jassi]

So is it to be accepted without debate that "open nature of the apartments might have been a contributory factor to them lowering their guard"?

IMO the parents selfishness in not wanting the children present could be an equally valid reason for leaving them in the apartment but it seems when put as a counter argument to "open nature of the apartments might have been a contributory factor to them lowering their guard" cries of off topic arise, posts are removed and it remains a given that their guard was lowered when the facts may actually be that they just didn't want the kids there.

You must remember that the others in the group did much the same, although The Paynes had an alarm.

One thing that has never been brought up is how many other parents on holiday that week left their children under similar circumstances at night.

We know that some made use of the evening services, but did anyone else leave their children unattended  of a similar age in an unlocked apartment?

[Bert Singe]

What do you mean "the parents didn't want their kids there"? Maybe they wanted their kids to get a good night's sleep and not have to stay up well past their bedtimes listening to adults drone on for hours?  What bloody selfish b......s!

In that case it's perfectly reasonable for the parents to dine earlier, then later in the evening stay in the apartment actually looking after the children but that's not what they chose is it? They chose to exclude the children from their activity.

Common sense would tell anybody that children being left unattended is potentially more harmful to them than the child having a late night so please don't attempt to dress their actions up as selfless.

[Bert Singe]

You must remember that the others in the group did much the same, although The Paynes had an alarm.

One thing that has never been brought up is how many other parents on holiday that week left their children under similar circumstances at night.

We know that some made use of the evening services, but did anyone else leave their children unattended  of a similar age in an unlocked apartment?

In that case it's collective selfishness from this particular group of people. What we do know is that other children were present with their parents and they did not go missing.

[Brietta]

You must remember that the others in the group did much the same, although The Paynes had an alarm.

One thing that has never been brought up is how many other parents on holiday that week left their children under similar circumstances at night.

We know that some made use of the evening services, but did anyone else leave their children unattended  of a similar age in an unlocked apartment?

I think that uniquely of all the accommodation the position and layout of apartment 5a lent itself to being entered by an unlocked patio door which was in close proximity to the tapas restaurant.

I think another issue would be if they had been made aware of the incidence of burglaries in that apartment block and the assaults on British children ... would any of them have left their children alone for a second, baby listening device or not?

Not so much the question of security in the resort, but maybe a greater awareness of the difficulties associated with the layout and difficulty of access to resort facilities highlighted by Madeleine's case may have led to holidaymakers looking for a more family friendly resort.
It is my opinion this one gives particular problems for families with three or four young children.