Sheila re loading. Twice.

[adam]

'WHAT', said AE after hearing that Sheila had reloaded. Twice.

AE had assumed Sheila had killed everyone with just one round of bullets.

Bamber told the police on the massacre night that Sheila knew how to use the guns at WHF. This damning claim eventually saw him back down. Saying at court she had 'limited' experience with guns. He couldn't say 'no experience', after all Sheila had held a gun while on a photo shoot.

Sent off to boarding school at a young age, Sheila later got married and moved to London. I doubt she ever got her hands dirty out in the WHF fields. Or ever fired a gun. Rumours that she may have gone on a shooting trip, years earlier float about.

It is doubtful someone in such a rage with limited/no gun experience would be able to load a rifle. I couldn't. There was also virtually no oil on her, which would be expected after two reloads.

The massacre attempt went off plan early on. Bamber perhaps over estimating the rifle power. And Neville needing to be brutally beaten. Reloads were needed to finish the job. Why not reload twice to make it look like an attack from a crazy woman ?

After brutally beating an alive/dead Neville I would have thought Sheila would have got enough anger out of her system. But no, reloads were required.

What do other people think of Sheila's reloads ?

147

[Holly Goodhead]

'WHAT', said AE after hearing that Sheila had reloaded. Twice.

AE had assumed Sheila had killed everyone with just one round of bullets.

Bamber told the police on the massacre night that Sheila knew how to use the guns at WHF. This damning claim eventually saw him back down. Saying at court she had 'limited' experience with guns. He couldn't say 'no experience', after all Sheila had held a gun while on a photo shoot.

Sent off to boarding school at a young age, Sheila later got married and moved to London. I doubt she ever got her hands dirty out in the WHF fields. Or ever fired a gun. Rumours that she may have gone on a shooting trip, years earlier float about.

It is doubtful someone in such a rage with limited/no gun experience would be able to load a rifle. I couldn't. There was also virtually no oil on her, which would be expected after two reloads.

The massacre attempt went off plan early on. Bamber perhaps over estimating the rifle power. And Neville needing to be brutally beaten. Reloads were needed to finish the job. Why not reload twice to make it look like an attack from a crazy woman ?

After brutally beating an alive/dead Neville I would have thought Sheila would have got enough anger out of her system. But no, reloads were required.

What do other people think of Sheila's reloads ?

SC grew up on a farm and was around guns from a young age.  She also had a relationship with a farm hand in her teenage years.  DB is on record confirming SC had a little experience with guns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i2CjYDJGTo @ 6.30 in

How much experience does one need to load and a fire a rifle?  Personally I think gender stereotyping kicks in.

[adam]

The judge in his summing up asked the jury ' Do you think Sheila was capable of reloading the gun twice in the middle of the killings ? '

The prosecution said it was 'unthinkable'.

The defence said she washed herself afterwards to get rid of lead marks !

[adam]

It is interesting that the prosecution said it was 'unthinkable' that Sheila re loaded.  Twice. 

They would have obviously investigated how easy/difficult it was to re load for someone with no/limited experience with guns. Who was in a murderous rage. Coming to the conclusion that it is 'unthinkable'

There is no record of the defence refuting this. Just claiming that Sheila had a shower, explaining why there was no lead oil on her  

[Holly Goodhead]

The judge in his summing up asked the jury ' Do you think Sheila was capable of reloading the gun twice in the middle of the killings ? '

The prosecution said it was 'unthinkable'.

The defence said she washed herself afterwards to get rid of lead marks !

What is the definition of "middle of the killings"?  Surely the emphasis should have been on the injuries sustained by the victims after the first round?  The pathologist makes it clear that the wounds sustained by NB and June in the bedroom from the first round would have resulted in death if further gunshots hadn't supervened.  Within seconds the first round was fired rendering NB and June completely defenceless.  Thereafter there was no urgency in reloading to maintain control.

JB's defence were useless and it seems likely to me Geoffrey Rivlin QC completely lost his appetite (if he ever had one) for court room battles after his drubbing from Anthony Arlidge QC.  Hence a couple of years after JB's trial he became a judge.

There seems to have been a lack of communication between the pathologist, ballistics/firearms and JB's defence in terms of spelling out the order of injuries and their impact eg the fact NB's left arm was totally impaired by the injury he sustained upstairs  meaning he was incapable of putting up any sort of fight in the kitchen with SC or JB.

[Holly Goodhead]

It is interesting that the prosecution said it was 'unthinkable' that Sheila re loaded.  Twice.

They would have obviously investigated how easy/difficult it was to re load for someone with no/limited experience with guns. Who was in a murderous rage. Coming to the conclusion that it is 'unthinkable'

There is no record of the defence refuting this. Just claiming that Sheila had a shower, explaining why there was no lead oil on her 

There's not much evidence of the defense refuting anything!  Why? Strong prosecution case or weak defense? 

[Myster]

Off topic, but might be of interest - Anthony Arlidge QC in action, lecturing about...

The City of London and the Magna Carta... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HY_esN_ums

[Holly Goodhead]

Off topic, but might be of interest - Anthony Arlidge QC in action, lecturing about...

The City of London and the Magna Carta... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HY_esN_ums

  Myster.  Interesting.

It would be good to listen to Geoffrey Rivlin present to see how the pair come over.  I had a look on You Tube and Googled him but haven't turned anything up.

[Holly Goodhead]

Myster.  Interesting.

It would be good to listen to Geoffrey Rivlin present to see how the pair come over.  I had a look on You Tube and Googled him but haven't turned anything up.

The best I can do is a photo.  GR is the gentleman with glasses.  The trio seem colour coordinated  &%+((£

[Myster]

The best I can do is a photo.  GR is the gentleman with glasses.  The trio seem colour coordinated  &%+((£

Looks like a family group, Holly... father, son?, daughter (in-law)?

Still off-topic...

Geoffrey Rivlin QC was involved with the prosecution of J.A. Symonds for corruption in 1981.  Not relevant to the Bamber case, but with audio recordings/transcripts of his closing speech...

http://www.romeospy.co.uk/Pages/geoffrey_rivlin_qc_prosecution1.htm

http://www.romeospy.co.uk/Pages/1981_times_inquiry_trial.htm

Edmund Lawson QC, junior defence counsel at the Bamber trial, died in 2009, aged 60 years...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/law-obituaries/5309767/Edmund-Lawson-QC.html

EL got lost on the back-roads making his own way to the outside Anschutz demonstration and missed it.

[Holly Goodhead]

Looks like a family group, Holly... father, son?, daughter (in-law)?

Still off-topic...

Geoffrey Rivlin QC was involved with the prosecution of J.A. Symonds for corruption in 1981.  Not relevant to the Bamber case, but with audio recordings/transcripts of his closing speech...

http://www.romeospy.co.uk/Pages/geoffrey_rivlin_qc_prosecution1.htm

http://www.romeospy.co.uk/Pages/1981_times_inquiry_trial.htm

Edmund Lawson QC, junior defence counsel at the Bamber trial, died in 2009, aged 60 years...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/law-obituaries/5309767/Edmund-Lawson-QC.html

EL got lost on the back-roads making his own way to the outside Anschutz demonstration and missed it.

Oh Myster... thank you.  You are so resourceful

Geoffrey Rivlin's voice doesn't sound anywhere near as authoritative as Anthony Arlidge's.  Geoffrey Rivlin was born in the north and attended school and uni in the north.  Not much hint of a northern accent apart from one word I detected.  Think it was "none".  My best friend at school was from the north and she pronounced the word similarly. 

The two chaps look to me to be of a similar age.  The female looks younger.  As far as I am aware GR has never married and doesn't have any children:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3356.msg127732#msg127732

I don't believe judges or barristers had to undergo refresher training/continual professional development back in the 80's.  They might do now.  At the time of JB's trial Sir Maurice Drake was 63 yoa - when was he last assessed as competent?  I am not saying he wasn't competent but these people just seem unaccountable to anyone.  It doesn't seem right that one man or woman decides on a strategy at trial and a person's liberty depends on the outcome.  By this I mean had Geoffrey Rivlin presented to the jury the scenario that the silencer was contaminated the jury may have returned a different verdict.  How competent was he?  He was 45 yoa at the time of JB's trial.  Again I'm not saying he wasn't but where's the evidence?  I worked in financial services for nearly a quarter of a century and I had to undertake annual testing to maintain my permissions with the regulator.  When I have trades people round eg plumbers etc they have to undertake refresher testing to maintain their licences.  I accept judges and barristers are trained to a very high degree in the first instance but even so they should surely have to demonstrate their competence periodically?  I believe all medical professionals now have to demonstrate ongoing competency. 

[david1819]

To say if Shelia had enough knowledge about guns to commit this act is irrelevant as it all depends on the firearm used. a .22 Semi Automatic rifle is about the most easiest gun to use and reload. The whole point of automatic weapons is to make the process of shooting and loading quick and easy, as this clip below shows

http://youtu.be/vx2hKR_XI2A?t=4m45s   

Load the magazine and pull back the bolt leaver and your done. Could Shelia have used this weapon? Defiantly Yes. If it was a manual rifle then that would be totally different but that is not the case

[Caroline]

To say if Shelia had enough knowledge about guns to commit this act is irrelevant as it all depends on the firearm used. a .22 Semi Automatic rifle is about the most easiest gun to use and reload. The whole point of automatic weapons is to make the process of shooting and loading quick and easy, as this clip below shows

http://youtu.be/vx2hKR_XI2A?t=4m45s   

Load the magazine and pull back the bolt leaver and your done. Could Shelia have used this weapon? Defiantly Yes. If it was a manual rifle then that would be totally different but that is not the case

If you know how to use one it's easy, if you have never used one before, I doubt it's as easy as you say.

[Holly Goodhead]

If you know how to use one it's easy, if you have never used one before, I doubt it's as easy as you say.

http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/darrinb/papers/bentivegna_ras2004.pdf

[puglove]

If you know how to use one it's easy, if you have never used one before, I doubt it's as easy as you say.

I wonder if Sheila knew that she had to chamber the first round?