Author Topic: Sheila re loading. Twice.  (Read 56703 times)

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Offline adam

Re: Sheila re loading. Twice.
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2015, 09:38:54 AM »
I wonder if Sheila knew that she had to chamber the first round?

Surely she did. After all she 'may' have gone a shooting party.  Years earlier !
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 10:16:54 AM by adam »

Offline APRIL

Re: Sheila re loading. Twice.
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2015, 10:05:20 AM »
That is the whole point we know much more today than back then.  If they knew back then what we know today Ferguson would never have prescribed her 200MG.  She might have been prescribed 50MG for all we know since it is the typicla high doasge and 100MG is reserved for the worst cases but then again she might have been deemed to warrant 100MG we have no idea what his assessment would have been.  All we know is he was wrong in claiming 200MG was safe and wrong about it not causing harmful side effects.  He claimed it was very safe but studies have found he was wrong which is why it is not used much these days there are safer drugs available.

The injections lasted for 6 weeks but she was being injected every 4 weeks.  The reason why you don't wait 6 weeks is you want to make sure it doesn't run out before the next injection and want to have regular intervals so you don't forget and you have some leeway in case there are some scheduling issues. Her last injection prior to death was July 11 (so 3 weeks before her death).  She was supposed to get another injection the week after she died. The dosage of her last injection was 100MG.  It is unknown why she stopped taking the agent prescribed to counter the side effects.  Given her complaints about being too drwsy you would think her doctor would have asked her if she was taking it but apparently she didn't ask.  Thus we have no clue why she stopped was she just too lazy or was there another reason?.  One of the things it is supposed to counter is the drowsiness she complained of...  So that helps explain why she was still so drowsy even after the reduction to 100MG. Had she been taking the countering aganet maybe that would not have been the case. 

 

 


But they DIDN'T know then what we NOW know. In fact, Dr F's recommended reduction wouldn't have taken the dose to what is currently suggested but he WAS taking the CLINICALLY APPROVED route of reducing meds SLOWLY. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that had she not left the hospital when she did, it would have been further reduced AND she'd have been monitored.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Sheila re loading. Twice.
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2015, 04:12:44 PM »

But they DIDN'T know then what we NOW know. In fact, Dr F's recommended reduction wouldn't have taken the dose to what is currently suggested but he WAS taking the CLINICALLY APPROVED route of reducing meds SLOWLY. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that had she not left the hospital when she did, it would have been further reduced AND she'd have been monitored.

You seem to ignore the forest for the trees to waste your time on worthless points.

In evaluating whether 100MG was enough to prevent her from having delusions what matters is the CURRENT medical evidence- the best evidence available not what they erroneously thought in 1985.

What we know today is that 100MG is as effective as 200MG and that 100MG is the highest safe amount.  We also knwo there is only a very small difference between 50MG and 100MG.  SO trying to argue that she relapsed because her dosage was cut has no medical support whatsoever.  Studies totally refute the arguments you and your nurse friend are making and so does the dosage recommendations in use today.


“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline APRIL

Re: Sheila re loading. Twice.
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2015, 04:47:28 PM »
You seem to ignore the forest for the trees to waste your time on worthless points.

In evaluating whether 100MG was enough to prevent her from having delusions what matters is the CURRENT medical evidence- the best evidence available not what they erroneously thought in 1985.

What we know today is that 100MG is as effective as 200MG and that 100MG is the highest safe amount.  We also knwo there is only a very small difference between 50MG and 100MG.  SO trying to argue that she relapsed because her dosage was cut has no medical support whatsoever.  Studies totally refute the arguments you and your nurse friend are making and so does the dosage recommendations in use today.



And I have allowed that had she stayed in hospital, instead of discharging herself, her dosage may have been lowered under controlled circumstances. I have yet to see WHERE I've stated that Sheila relapsed -I don't normally do sweeping statements- because her dosage had been cut but I stand by that she was a psychological mess because of it. I don't have "a nurse friend" but I DO have a friend who was a practicing psychiatrist and you can go on pretending you're more qualified than she or ANYONE else to deliver opinions on the case just because you've read someone ELSE'S opinion on the internet, but I'll take a doctor's opinion over an articled clerk's any day, thank-you.

As for ignoring the forest for the trees and wasting my time on worthless points, NEWS FLASH!!! Jeremy has been  found guilty. He is doing a FULL life term. I'm concerned that Sheila was badly let down and I stand by it. As there seems to be nothing that you care about other than arguing points of law in an already proven case, I fail to see why you're wasting YOUR time, either.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Sheila re loading. Twice.
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2015, 07:26:58 PM »


And I have allowed that had she stayed in hospital, instead of discharging herself, her dosage may have been lowered under controlled circumstances. I have yet to see WHERE I've stated that Sheila relapsed -I don't normally do sweeping statements- because her dosage had been cut but I stand by that she was a psychological mess because of it. I don't have "a nurse friend" but I DO have a friend who was a practicing psychiatrist and you can go on pretending you're more qualified than she or ANYONE else to deliver opinions on the case just because you've read someone ELSE'S opinion on the internet, but I'll take a doctor's opinion over an articled clerk's any day, thank-you.

As for ignoring the forest for the trees and wasting my time on worthless points, NEWS FLASH!!! Jeremy has been  found guilty. He is doing a FULL life term. I'm concerned that Sheila was badly let down and I stand by it. As there seems to be nothing that you care about other than arguing points of law in an already proven case, I fail to see why you're wasting YOUR time, either.

You have no evidence at all to suggest her cut in dosage resulted in her being a mess or her leaving the hospital for that matter.  It is a perfect example of how you just decide what you want to argue insipite of evidence instead of as a result of following evidence.

What did she do after being released tha tindicates she was a psychological mess and woudl have been avoidable with mroe treatment?

What did she do after her dosage was cut that indicates she was a mess?

 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline John

Re: Sheila re loading. Twice.
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2015, 01:56:39 AM »
'WHAT', said AE after hearing that Sheila had reloaded. Twice.

AE had assumed Sheila had killed everyone with just one round of bullets.

Bamber told the police on the massacre night that Sheila knew how to use the guns at WHF. This damning claim eventually saw him back down. Saying at court she had 'limited' experience with guns. He couldn't say 'no experience', after all Sheila had held a gun while on a photo shoot.

Sent off to boarding school at a young age, Sheila later got married and moved to London. I doubt she ever got her hands dirty out in the WHF fields. Or ever fired a gun. Rumours that she may have gone on a shooting trip, years earlier float about.

It is doubtful someone in such a rage with limited/no gun experience would be able to load a rifle. I couldn't. There was also virtually no oil on her, which would be expected after two reloads.

The massacre attempt went off plan early on. Bamber perhaps over estimating the rifle power. And Neville needing to be brutally beaten. Reloads were needed to finish the job. Why not reload twice to make it look like an attack from a crazy woman ?

After brutally beating an alive/dead Neville I would have thought Sheila would have got enough anger out of her system. But no, reloads were required.

What do other people think of Sheila's reloads ?

The mechanics of the five murders was premeditated.  Sheila could never have carried them out on her own as part of some deranged psychotic episode.  The killer had to be proficient with the rifle and Sheila hated guns.  Remember, no missed shots as one would expect from someone who was having an event.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 05:52:53 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Sheila re loading. Twice.
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2015, 12:56:20 PM »
You have no evidence at all to suggest her cut in dosage resulted in her being a mess or her leaving the hospital for that matter.  It is a perfect example of how you just decide what you want to argue insipite of evidence instead of as a result of following evidence.

What did she do after being released tha tindicates she was a psychological mess and woudl have been avoidable with mroe treatment?

What did she do after her dosage was cut that indicates she was a mess?

Just to clarify. I was implying that a reduced dose or a missed dose would have made her less sedated and more active as all of the evidence that claims Shelia was too incapable of using the gun is consistent will the side effects of the medication she was on.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Sheila re loading. Twice.
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2015, 03:40:29 PM »
Just to clarify. I was implying that a reduced dose or a missed dose would have made her less sedated and more active as all of the evidence that claims Shelia was too incapable of using the gun is consistent will the side effects of the medication she was on.

There are 2 distinct issues in play with respect to the medication.

1) effectiveness:  was the dosage too small to be medically effective and thus she had a relaose

2) the side effects:

a) one side effect of the medication is drowsiness and sedation.  Both before and after the reduction to 100MG she complained to people about being overly tired and would go to bed early. The Saturday evening before the murders she went home early from a party because she was tired.

b) loss of dexterity and involuntary spasms.

The tired issue makes it unlikely she would wake up in the middle of the night. But if she did there would be nothing to agitate her because everyone else was in bed and her medication was working properly.

The issue of the involuntary spasms and loss of dexterity means she would have a problem loading the gun rapidly and a problem with aiming it accurately. It is hard to believe she could fire 25 shots without missing a single time given the dexterity problems, her poor hand eye coordination and the involuntary spasms.

This is extra though not the main case against Jeremy.

The main case against Jeremy was testimony that he told Julie he planned to kill his family, that he called her before police to tell her they were dead, evidence he lied to police and staged bullets to support his lies and finally evidence that the victims did not kill themselves or eachother and that a third party did it so proof that Jeremy carried out his planned attack.

His supporters play games and dance around but never competently address let alone refute this evidence.  Most supporters are busy arguing other cases instead of the specifics of this case.  They talk about documented MOJs and then say this proves there could be an MOJ here though the facts are completely different and other MOJs having nothing at all to do with this case.  They do that because they have nothing substantive to seize upon in this case to establish there was an MOJ.

The claims of his defenders seemed pretty damning and I approached the case thinking maybe he was innocent.  But upon scrutinizing the claims and looking in depth at the facts it became clear his defenders grossly misrepresented things from A-Z.  Stories about Nevill calling police, Sheila being shot by police and then moved  and many other claims all have turned out to be made up nonsense.  When all the nonsense is stripped away it is clear Jeremy is guilty and his defenders simply choose to ignore reality for a variety of reasons ranging from hating police to loving conspiracies to having some odd like for Jeremy.  If you approach it rationally and objectively there is no question of his guilt.   
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 05:53:25 PM by John »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Sheila re loading. Twice.
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2015, 07:16:27 PM »
There are 2 distinct issues in play with respect to the medication.

1) effectiveness:  was the dosage too small to be medically effective and thus she had a relaose

2) the side effects:

a) one side effect of the medication is drowsiness and sedation.  Both before and after the reduction to 100MG she complained to people about being overly tired and would go to bed early. The Saturday evening before the murders she went home early from a party because she was tired.

b) loss of dexterity and involuntary spasms.


We will need to know via medical records when her last injection was. if she was so tired and drowsy how and why did she attend the party?


This is extra though not the main case against Jeremy.

The main case against Jeremy was testimony that he told Julie he planned to kill his family, that he called her before police to tell her they were dead.

This is what blows my mind! Why on earth would Jeremy tell anyone? He plans this elaborate murder covering his tracks ensuring minimal detection only to tell someone afterwards he done it? It don't make sense. How on earth could Julie in her right mind react to such news? Gets a call from her then boyfiend saying he murdered his entire family including two six year old boys. Then she stays with him feeling safe and not in danger of her own life knowing her partner is a mass murderer?

His supporters play games and dance around but never competently address let alone refute this evidence.

Both camps are guilty of the same mentality. Going round in circles making claims and counter claims going from one subject to another with circumstantial theories and ideas about what took place without resulting in any solid conclusions. All I know is that Jeremy's conviction is unsafe, What was used to convict him has come under serious scrutiny and the appeals courts have unfairly moved the goal post for him. I don't really take a solid stance on weather it was Jeremy or Shelia, But he should be given a second trial. Its a dilemma for the Crown prison service, keep an innocent man behind bars or let a killer go free? they will be accused of wrongdoing either way

Offline Myster

Re: Sheila re loading. Twice.
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2015, 08:01:11 PM »
There'll never be another trial... for starters because the leading protagonists have since died - Stan Jones, Bob Miller, Robert Boutflour to name but three. No doubt more will follow before reaching that stage, even if it was ever to be considered.  Anybody who thinks or hopes otherwise is living in cloud-cuckoo land, I'm afraid!
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline adam

Re: Sheila re loading. Twice.
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2015, 08:28:14 PM »
We will need to know via medical records when her last injection was. if she was so tired and drowsy how and why did she attend the party?

This is what blows my mind! Why on earth would Jeremy tell anyone? He plans this elaborate murder covering his tracks ensuring minimal detection only to tell someone afterwards he done it? It don't make sense. How on earth could Julie in her right mind react to such news? Gets a call from her then boyfiend saying he murdered his entire family including two six year old boys. Then she stays with him feeling safe and not in danger of her own life knowing her partner is a mass murderer?

Both camps are guilty of the same mentality. Going round in circles making claims and counter claims going from one subject to another with circumstantial theories and ideas about what took place without resulting in any solid conclusions. All I know is that Jeremy's conviction is unsafe, What was used to convict him has come under serious scrutiny and the appeals courts have unfairly moved the goal post for him. I don't really take a solid stance on weather it was Jeremy or Shelia, But he should be given a second trial. Its a dilemma for the Crown prison service, keep an innocent man behind bars or let a killer go free? they will be accused of wrongdoing either way

I don't think his conviction is unsafe.

It is mainly Bamber who has been banging on about it over the last 30 years. Accusing the relatives, police and Julie of framing him.

He is skilful at doing this, the internet giving his flagging 90's campaign a boast. There is no proof any of the evidence is wrong. Just Chinese whispers.

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Sheila re loading. Twice.
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2015, 08:38:51 PM »
There'll never be another trial... for starters because the leading protagonists have since died - Stan Jones, Bob Miller, Robert Boutflour to name but three. No doubt more will follow before reaching that stage, even if it was ever to be considered.  Anybody who thinks or hopes otherwise is living in cloud-cuckoo land, I'm afraid!

Yeah I Know, Not to mention finding an impartial jury that wont read up on all the gossip that circulates the forums.  I think its also due to the high profile of the case that would bring allot of politics involved

But considering all the new evidence and information what do you think would happen if it did happen? It would be very interesting.


david1819

  • Guest
Re: Sheila re loading. Twice.
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2015, 08:46:07 PM »
I don't think his conviction is unsafe.

It is mainly Bamber who has been banging on about it over the last 30 years. Accusing the relatives, police and Julie of framing him.

He is skilful at doing this, the internet giving his flagging 90's campaign a boast. There is no proof any of the evidence is wrong. Just Chinese whispers.

If that was the case there wound not be 9061 posts about the Bamber case on this forum. why all the fuss if its just Bamber banning on? There is an abundance of scrutiny of the evidence and the debates that circulate on and off the web are testimant to that.

Offline adam

Re: Sheila re loading. Twice.
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2015, 08:55:44 PM »
If that was the case there wound not be 9061 posts about the Bamber case on this forum. why all the fuss if its just Bamber banning on? There is an abundance of scrutiny of the evidence and the debates that circulate on and off the web are testimant to that.

It's an interesting case for lots of reasons.

High profile.
Horrific.
Greed.
Love.
Money.
Police mistakes.
The murder/suicide frame attempt.
Bamber's 'Campaign for Freedom'.

People discuss the possibility that evidence was planted or people lied. But there is no proof.


Offline Myster

Re: Sheila re loading. Twice.
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2015, 09:04:45 PM »
Yeah I Know, Not to mention finding an impartial jury that wont read up on all the gossip that circulates the forums.  I think its also due to the high profile of the case that would bring allot of politics involved

But considering all the new evidence and information what do you think would happen if it did happen? It would be very interesting.

Which new evidence is this?  Three questionable burn marks on Nevill Bamber's back, or dubious gun shot deposits on Sheila's neck. Those have already been rejected by the CCRC and Appeal Court, and have also seen the departure of his latest legal representative from the case.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.