Libel trial day 14 - Statement of facts proved/not proved issued to lawyers.

[jassi]

If this information was in GNR files, the PJ may not even have been aware of its existence.

I believe a similar situation used to exist in UK between forces of different regions - before they got fully computerised.

[Carana]

Number 11 on reciepts.

http://justice4mccannfam.5forum.biz/t3821-so-gonc-has-no-money.

Thanks. That seems to be an enormous sudden amount. What's the explanation?

[Alice Purjorick]

I'm not sure what you mean.

Amaral was "promoted" sideways to the nearest place in the general area, which happened to be a larger precinct. What was his new title, if he had one? Or is it simply the fact of having been moved from Portimão to Faro that was considered to qualify as a promotion?

Tavares de Almeida was given "sabbatical leave", often granted to pursue further studies, according to Levyspiel.

Torture cases in both the Cipriano and the Borges cases were filtering through and the authorities had to be seen to be doing something.

Neither of these officers should have been on the case in the first place.

That maybe so but they were on the case. We can debate til the cows come home whether or not they should have been it will not change the fact.

My point was:
Had I been the honcho in charge of an investigation that had suddenly mushroomed to become of international interest I would have elbowed from the inquiry anyone who looked like they could become a liability for whatever reason. Forgetting names and all that haraz would you want the coordinator of case like that to be a man who was about to be charged with criminal offence?. What would you do under circumstances?
What happened was the only logical action. No conspiracy no nothing just a sound business move.

[stephen25000]

Thanks. That seems to be an enormous sudden amount. What's the explanation?

Ah the purple cavern of gloom strikes again.

Very reliable then.

[Carana]

That maybe so but they were on the case. We can debate til the cows come home whether or not they should have been it will not change the fact.

My point was:
Had I been the honcho in charge of an investigation that had suddenly mushroomed to become of international interest I would have elbowed from the inquiry anyone who looked like they could become a liability for whatever reason. Forgetting names and all that haraz would you want the coordinator of case like that to be a man who was about to be charged with criminal offence?. What would you do under circumstances?
What happened was the only logical action. No conspiracy no nothing just a sound business move.

If I've understood you correctly (although I'm not certain that I have), I would agree.

I think that anyone sensible would have "promoted" them to other investigations pronto, far away from the media.

Issues may have been that:

- the superiors thought that the case would be resolved quickly, but it wasn't and the whole situation escalated into chaos;

- there was no internal diplomatic system in place in which to quietly replace the original team quickly without too many feathers being ruffled.

- there was no PJ media service, until they wheeled in poor de Sousa to have a face in front of the cameras to say absolutely nothing new - and therefore the tabloids started poking their noses around;

- the head of Faro at the time (old school) may already have been seriously ill at the time and was unable to cope with the stress of both personal and professional issues (he did die, RIP);

- regional police sensitivities were no doubt delicate;

- there was no one else to replace them at regional level... and superiors (whoever they may have been once Faro honcho was very ill) may have not wanted to draw media attention to looming investigations into the key investigators already involved in the Madeleine case concerning other cases;

- there were all kinds of potential corruption issues looming involving regional politicians, some of which may involve police officers (as in the UK and elsewhere), although not much appears to be clear for the moment;

- Amaral ended up as de facto head honcho and didn't appreciate the support from the UK, but neither did he appreciate the boys from Lisbon brought in to "assist". Instead of appreciating the support, he seemed to have taken it as an insult.

The problem, however, was that he was totally out of his depth and refused to admit it.

[Montclair]

On this point... Kate testified in court that Sean had asked her if it was true that Amaral had said that they had hidden Madeleine. Was that not taken into account?

IIRC, it was Trish Cameron who testified that it was Kate who told her about the alleged incident of the school bus. Hearsay at the least. Unbelievable really. Have any of you been on a bus with school children? You can't hear yourself think much less the radio.

[Carana]

IIRC, it was Trish Cameron who testified that it was Kate who told her about the alleged incident of the school bus. Hearsay at the least. Unbelievable really. Have any of you been on a bus with school children? You can't hear yourself think much less the radio.

Unless you (or your pals) hear your name...


According to the report made by Anne Guedes, Kate testified:




Judge – Do the twins know about the book, the documentary?

KMC answers that of course they use computers at school and at home and she has to be very careful and try to supervise the information they get.

Judge – Do they have a global idea about what people say?

KMC mentions that her son, in October asked her why Mr Amaral said that they hid Madeleine. She answered that there were many stupid things in his book.

Judge – How did your son know about that? How was it possible if you were careful to prevent access to the book?

KMC thinks he heard it on the radio, in the school bus.

Judge – So what did you do?

KMC says that they spoke to David Trickey who advised them to let the twins make comments and just answer when they ask questions. She says that they had to contact the school in case a child would tell the twins about something that is in the book. She says that the book is noxious for adults and must be even more damaging for children.

[Montclair]

Is there evidence of a radio programme in the UK on that day reporting on Gonçalo Amaral?

It is correct that Trish Cameron did not mention the bus incident,but  she did say in court that Amelie mentioned that the kids at school talked about the case. Isabel Duarte asked her if the girl told her directly and she answered "No".

[Carana]

Is there evidence of a radio programme in the UK on that day reporting on Gonçalo Amaral?

I have no idea on which day this was alleged to have happened, nor whether Sean brought the subject up on the same day (sometimes kids keep worries to themselves for a while).

In any event, would it have been accepted in terms of evidence beyond an impact statement by the plaintiffs?

If bombarding the UK with booklets and media interviews in Amaral's honour, based on his theory, over several years doesn't constitute damage, then I doubt that a radio broadcast on a school bus would, either.

Why does it appear to have been disregarded?

One possibility may be that such antics wouldn't be considered as having a direct link to damage, just as he may not be accountable if some nutjob did decide to waterboard the parents, kidnap the twins or firebomb the family home.

According to that logic, however, Hitler and his handful of close cronies were not ultimately responsible for the Holocaust.

[Montclair]

I have no idea on which day this was alleged to have happened, nor whether Sean brought the subject up on the same day (sometimes kids keep worries to themselves for a while).

In any event, would it have been accepted in terms of evidence beyond an impact statement by the plaintiffs?

If bombarding the UK with booklets and media interviews in Amaral's honour, based on his theory, over several years doesn't constitute damage, then I doubt that a radio broadcast on a school bus would, either.

Why does it appear to have been disregarded?

One possibility may be that such antics wouldn't be considered as having a direct link to damage, just as he may not be accountable if some nutjob did decide to waterboard the parents, kidnap the twins or firebomb the family home.

According to that logic, however, Hitler and his handful of close cronies were not ultimately responsible for the Holocaust.

Media interviews in the UK spouting Gonçalo Amaral's or rather the police investigation's theory? When has anyone been able to do an interview in any way critical of the McCanns in the UK?

[Carew]

Unless you (or your pals) hear your name...


According to the report made by Anne Guedes, Kate testified:




Judge – Do the twins know about the book, the documentary?

KMC answers that of course they use computers at school and at home and she has to be very careful and try to supervise the information they get.

Judge – Do they have a global idea about what people say?

KMC mentions that her son, in October asked her why Mr Amaral said that they hid Madeleine. She answered that there were many stupid things in his book.

Judge – How did your son know about that? How was it possible if you were careful to prevent access to the book?

KMC thinks he heard it on the radio, in the school bus.

Judge – So what did you do?

KMC says that they spoke to David Trickey who advised them to let the twins make comments and just answer when they ask questions. She says that they had to contact the school in case a child would tell the twins about something that is in the book. She says that the book is noxious for adults and must be even more damaging for children.

It would be unusual to hear or read any mention of Amaral without his name, or anything with which he is involved, being preceded by "disgraced cop" or "sacked" or "replaced"..........

It would imply a lack of credibility , even to a nine year old, maybe?

[Mr Gray]

It would be unusual to hear or read any mention of Amaral without his name, or anything with which he is involved, being preceded by "disgraced cop" or "sacked" or "replaced"..........

It would imply a lack of credibility , even to a nine year old, maybe?

just as it would be unusual to see any mention of the mccanns without seeing the word neglect etc mentioned...
as it is amaral has been proved in court to be a disgraced cop...nothing has been proved in court re the mccanns

[ferryman]

Media interviews in the UK spouting Gonçalo Amaral's or rather the police investigation's theory? When has anyone been able to do an interview in any way critical of the McCanns in the UK?

Aside from some ill-conceived notions about the regularity of checks on the children, what is there critical to say about the McCanns?

[Carana]

It would be unusual to hear or read any mention of Amaral without his name, or anything with which he is involved, being preceded by "disgraced cop" or "sacked" or "replaced"..........

It would imply a lack of credibility , even to a nine year old, maybe?

If it was a news report on a national station, it's unlikely that they'd use the tabloids' bucket of adjectives.

[Carew]

just as it would be unusual to see any mention of the mccanns without seeing the word neglect etc mentioned...
as it is amaral has been proved in court to be a disgraced cop...nothing has been proved in court re the mccanns

It would be unusual to hear, see on t.v. or to read the words "neglectful parents" consistently placed in front of the names Kate and Gerry McCann as is "Disgraced Cop" in front of Amaral`s.