Author Topic: Expanation and evaluation of Fowler's claims  (Read 10671 times)

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david1819

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Re: Expanation and evaluation of Fowler's claims
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2015, 11:19:12 PM »
You have not demonstrated you understand a thing about his claims. You have been unable to discuss the details at all.  You just keep posting his CV and saying this means his claims are true.

I have discussed in detail what he claims and why his claims are just nonsense speculation.  You have not responded with any substantive points or evidence you just keep saying he is an expert who should be trusted because he is an expert.

Vanezis is an expert too and he is the expert who actually inspected her body. In the eyes of the courts and rational people that puts him in a much stronger position than other experts because he actually saw the body while they did not.  The only thing that experts can do to refute him is to establish he relied on bad science or say they observe something in photos he missed.

Fowler SPECULATES Vanezis observed a muzzle imprint from the rifle but misinterpreted it as a bullet abrasion.  He says the size of this muzzle imprint is consistent with the rifle muzzle not the size of the hole in the moderator though Vanezis didn't take any measurements nor did anyone else so he has no scientific basis to make such a claim.  Objectively, Fowler had no scientific basis to claim the size matched the rifle even if it had been a muzzle imprint.  But he has no scientific basis to say it is a muzzle imprint either he simply made it up from nothing that it was a muzzle imprint as opposed to bullet abrasion and dirt ring.  Since he had no evidence his unsupported speculation was dismissed as unsupported speculation by the CCRC.

Can you provide evidence to support his assessment and prove Vanezis was wrong and tha tit was a muzzle imprint?  No of course not because Fowler could not even provide any evidence.  Can you provide any evidence that the abrasion and dirt in were measured? No because it is crystal clear in the autopsy that only the entrance wounds were measured.  So what evidence could proffered that the abrasions were the same size as the rifle barrel?  None!

You ignore reality and childishly say that his claims should be trusted because he is an expert.

Again you are criticizing work you have not seen and making up conclusions in the hope you are correct.

You ignore reality and childishly say all the experts who know more than you are jokes and clowns.
It was Mark Webster who cleared Barry George of the murder of Jill Dando. It was Philip Boyce who helped clear David Bain of the murder of his family. But according to you they are just jokes and clowns and whoever listens to them is a fool.

I am no fool hence why I listen to the experts. If you were not so scornfully abusive and disagreeable towards those with apposing opinions we could have a much more constructive debate however since the opposite is true I don't bother.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 04:02:55 AM by Admin »

Offline adam

Re: Expanation and evaluation of Fowler's claims
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2015, 11:38:17 PM »
Yes he was retained by the defense.  He claimed exactly what I stated above opining that Vanezis screwed up and misinterpreted a muzzle imprint from the rifle as a bullet abrasion and dirt ring.  He had zilch to establish Vanezis was wrong and that it was actually a muzzle imprint so he speculation was rejected.   David can't provide anything in support of his claims either he simply says we should trust his claims without question because he found two clowns who agree with him.

It was Sheila's blood in the silencer. So it must have been used. Vanezis must have been correct.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Expanation and evaluation of Fowler's claims
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2015, 12:37:45 AM »
Again you are criticizing work you have not seen and making up conclusions in the hope you are correct.

You ignore reality and childishly say all the experts who know more than you are jokes and clowns.
It was Mark Webster who cleared Barry George of the murder of Jill Dando. It was Philip Boyce who helped clear David Bain of the murder of his family. But according to you they are just jokes and clowns and whoever listens to them is a fool.

I am no fool hence why I listen to the experts. If you were not so scornfully abusive and disagreeable towards those with apposing opinions we could have a much more constructive debate however since the opposite is true I don't bother.

Even a broken analog clock is right 2 times a day.

Rational intelligent people including lawyers and judges evaluate claims of experts on the basis of the evidence that can be brought to bear by such experts.  We don't simply say were are going to pick which expert we feel has the best credentials and past history and to thus believe anything they say.  It requires looking with SPECIFICITY at their claims and the evidence.

I read Fowler's claims and fully comprehend them. His claims are nonsense.  I took forensic courses but didn't need them to be able to know that muzzle burns can only be left when a weapon is in hard contact with the skin.  Anyone who can read is able to read books that detail how a muzzle imprint can only be left when there is contact between the weapon and the flesh.

Vanezis and other prosecution experts assessed that the non-fatal wound was not a contact wound.  Fowler implicitly says they were wrong and says it was a contact wound because otherwise it could not have resulted in a muzzle imprint.

On what basis does he write in his report that there was a muzzle imprint?  Does he claim he can see a muzzle imprint in crime scene photos photos? NO!  Did anyone else who saw the photos claim they can see a muzzle imprint?  NO!  Did anyone who saw her body say they could see a muzzle imprint?  NO!

So on what basis does he claim there was a muzzle imprint?  The SOLE basis of his claim is him deciding that HE FEELS Vanezis description of an entrance wound with a bullet abrasion and dirt ring around it sounds to him like a muzzle imprint instead of a dirt ring and bullet abrasion.  This is the SOLE basis of his claim that it was a contact wound with a muzzle imprint.

After making this giant leap he then says he feels the size matches the size of the muzzle without the moderator.  Did Fowler measure what Vanezis called a bullet abrasion and dirt ring?  No!  Did Vanezis measure them?  No!  So he had no scientific basis to even know the size and try to make a comparison. 

Rational people including judges and lawyers look at the above and actually TEST the validity of claims of experts.  We do not simply take the unsupported word of an expert because they have training in their field.  Upon inspection we learn that Vanezis actually inspected the body and had the ability to observe firsthand.  All Fowler could do was read what Vanezis assessed and without any valid scientific basis Fowler decided A) they were wrong about it being a non-contact wound; B) misinterpreted a muzzle imprint as a bullet abrasion and dirt ring and C) that the size of the abrasion matched the rifle barrel sans moderator.

A rational person rejects Fowler's allegations as lacking in proof.  An irrational person chooses not to test the claims and simply to accept his claims as truth without question SOLELY because for some unknown reason you have decided he is more trustworthy than Vanezis. 

Irrational people choose who to believe based on who is making a claim.  Rational people don't care who is making the claim they look at the claim itself and test that claim to see whether the evidence supports the claim or not.

That is what the CCRC did and it found his claims to be totally lacking in support as do other rational people.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 04:03:25 AM by Admin »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

david1819

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Re: Expanation and evaluation of Fowler's claims
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2015, 12:50:51 AM »
Even a broken analog clock is right 2 times a day.

Rational intelligent people including lawyers and judges evaluate claims of experts on the basis of the evidence that can be brought to bear by such experts.  We don't simply say were are going to pick which expert we feel has the best credentials and past history and to thus believe anything they say.  It requires looking with SPECIFICITY at their claims and the evidence.

I read Fowler's claims and fully comprehend them. His claims are nonsense.  I took forensic courses but didn't need them to be able to know that muzzle burns can only be left when a weapon is in hard contact with the skin.  Anyone who can read is able to read books that detail how a muzzle imprint can only be left when there is contact between the weapon and the flesh.

Vanezis and other prosecution experts assessed that the non-fatal wound was not a contact wound.  Fowler implicitly says they were wrong and says it was a contact wound because otherwise it could not have resulted in a muzzle imprint.

On what basis does he write in his report that there was a muzzle imprint?  Does he claim he can see a muzzle imprint in crime scene photos photos? NO!  Did anyone else who saw the photos claim they can see a muzzle imprint?  NO!  Did anyone who saw her body say they could see a muzzle imprint?  NO!

So on what basis does he claim there was a muzzle imprint?  The SOLE basis of his claim is him deciding that HE FEELS Vanezis description of an entrance wound with a bullet abrasion and dirt ring around it sounds to him like a muzzle imprint instead of a dirt ring and bullet abrasion.  This is the SOLE basis of his claim that it was a contact wound with a muzzle imprint.

After making this giant leap he then says he feels the size matches the size of the muzzle without the moderator.  Did Fowler measure what Vanezis called a bullet abrasion and dirt ring?  No!  Did Vanezis measure them?  No!  So he had no scientific basis to even know the size and try to make a comparison. 

Rational people including judges and lawyers look at the above and actually TEST the validity of claims of experts.  We do not simply take the unsupported word of an expert because they have training in their field.  Upon inspection we learn that Vanezis actually inspected the body and had the ability to observe firsthand.  All Fowler could do was read what Vanezis assessed and without any valid scientific basis Fowler decided A) they were wrong about it being a non-contact wound; B) misinterpreted a muzzle imprint as a bullet abrasion and dirt ring and C) that the size of the abrasion matched the rifle barrel sans moderator.

A rational person rejects Fowler's allegations as lacking in proof.  An irrational person chooses not to test the claims and simply to accept his claims as truth without question SOLELY because for some unknown reason you have decided he is more trustworthy than Vanezis. 

Irrational people choose who to believe based on who is making a claim.  Rational people don't care who is making the claim they look at the claim itself and test that claim to see whether the evidence supports the claim or not.

That is what the CCRC did and it found his claims to be totally lacking in support as do other rational people.

You don't speak on behalf of all rational people.

You have not seen Fowlers report nor have you seen the CCRC's decision. The above is nothing but guesswork on your part again grossly ill informed speculation.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Expanation and evaluation of Fowler's claims
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2015, 01:16:46 AM »
You don't speak on behalf of all rational people.

You have not seen Fowlers report nor have you seen the CCRC's decision. The above is nothing but guesswork on your part again grossly ill informed speculation.

I have seen his report and quoted from it.

You on the other hand have not discussed the specifics at all.  You just keep posting his CV and saying we should trust him because of that.  Anytime someone posts that we should believe someone because of their credentials instead of posting the points they made and evidence they presented to validate such it means they are a fool who just subscribes to a particular authority instead of subscribing to a valid supported claim.

Subscribing to an authority:
David: Believe it because Fowler has good credentials and says so.
David: Believe it because NGB is a lawyer and says so

The emphasis is on believing a person not looking at the claim and testing it.

That is what fools do not courts or other rational people.   It's not enough to tell a jury you should believe this because an expert you found says so.  You have to actually have the expert explain their reasoning in great detail so they can establish their claims make sense and are substantiated with evidence.

You keep saying you have secret information about Fowler but it is apparent to me you don't understand squat about Fowler's claims and thus can't talk about them intelligently all you can do is say you believe him over others because of his CV...

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

david1819

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Re: Expanation and evaluation of Fowler's claims
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2015, 03:11:57 AM »
I have seen his report and quoted from it.

How Its never been released?. If you have a copy why don't you post it?


Subscribing to an authority:
David: Believe it because Fowler has good credentials and says so.
David: Believe it because NGB is a lawyer and says so

David wants information on Medical pathology - Believe what Dr Fowler sais
David wants information on Forensics of weapons - Believe what Philip Boyce
David wants information on UK law - Believe what NGB sais
David wants information on US law - Believe what Scipio sais

Makes sense don't you think?

David believes Dr Fowler and his peers but will listen to other medical examiners giving good reasons not to believe it.

Do you understand my reasoning?

You keep saying you have secret information about Fowler but it is apparent to me you don't understand squat about Fowler's claims and thus can't talk about them intelligently all you can do is say you believe him over others because of his CV...

I have some info on the CCRCs decision that has not been released. Apparently there is an ongoing legal dispute, I guess we just have to wait and see.


Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Expanation and evaluation of Fowler's claims
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2015, 03:22:42 AM »
How Its never been released?. If you have a copy why don't you post it?

David wants information on Medical pathology - Believe what Dr Fowler sais
David wants information on Forensics of weapons - Believe what Philip Boyce
David wants information on UK law - Believe what NGB sais
David wants information on US law - Believe what Scipio sais

Makes sense don't you think?

David believes Dr Fowler and his peers but will listen to other medical examiners giving good reasons not to believe it.

Do you understand my reasoning?

I have some info on the CCRCs decision that has not been released. Apparently there is an ongoing legal dispute, I guess we just have to wait and see.

Your claim you have info from insiders is as believable to me as Mike saying he saw a photo of Sheila on the bed.

In the meantime you continue demonstrating you have no understand whatsoever of what Fowler was arguing because you don't have a clue.  All you know is that is conclusion was that the first shot was fired without the moderator attached and that you accept this conclusion simply because you choose to trust him blindly.



« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 04:05:17 AM by Admin »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

david1819

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Re: Expanation and evaluation of Fowler's claims
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2015, 03:38:22 AM »
Your claim you have info from insiders is as believable to me as Mike saying he saw a photo of Sheila on the bed.

Believe me or not I could not care less

In the meantime you continue demonstrating you have no understand whatsoever of what Fowler was arguing because you don't have a clue.
That makes two of us then. 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 04:05:38 AM by Admin »

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Expanation and evaluation of Fowler's claims
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2015, 03:58:18 AM »
Believe me or not I could not care less
That makes two of us then. 



But we are talking about someone pretending he has inside information even though I was the one who explained to you the process and the various documents that existed.  You obvious forgot that.  I explained which documents the campaign team publicly released and which they did not and I even referred you to the limited information contained in the Court of Appeal ruling.

This:

"Dr Fowler’s evidence
1.   The evidence of Dr Fowler is set out in a more substantial report.  That report has been peer reviewed by Dr Dragovich, who is Chief Medical Examiner in Oakland County, Michigan and Dr Marcella Fierro, who is the retired Chief Medical Examiner to the Commonwealth of Virginia.  Both have qualifications as forensic pathologists.  In his careful report, Dr Fowler makes clear that he has reviewed the evidence, which was available in relation to the wounds.  He concluded that the abrasions found were consistent with those of a rifle without a silencer, that there were no distinctive marks on the body which showed that a silencer had been attached, and the residue was consistent with contact wounds.  He refers to further work that needs doing, a matter to which I will return in a moment. 

2.   The Commission's judgment on this matter, which is set out carefully in its decision, is at paragraphs 360 to 362.  First of all, it is said that Dr Fowler did not deal with the fact that there was no residue found in the rifle, but there was the blood flake found in the silencer.  Although there is really no answer to the first half of that observation, as regards the second there is the point, on which I was prepared to make an assumption, namely that there may be a problem with the blood flake.  I have made that assumption because it seems to me that it is possible to do so by reference to the other reasons given by the Commission.  The first is the fact that the evidence of Dr Fowler does not grapple with the evidence of the fight in the kitchen and the paint evidence, to which I have referred; second, it does not grapple with the contemporaneous evidence of Mr Fletcher and Dr Vanezis at the trial, which dealt with these issues; third, the Commission took the view that the injuries could well have been caused by another process. 

3.   It is accepted realistically by Mr McKay that those are formidable points.  I cannot see how one can begin to say those are points that the Commission can in any way be criticised for arriving at.  They must be plainly within that ambit of judgment open to the Commission.  It therefore seems to me very, very difficult to see how, on the analysis that I have briefly summarised, the conclusion in relation to the evidence of Dr Fowler is susceptible to challenge"

This details as plain as day that Fowler said abrasions were consistent with being made by the rifle barrel. WHich abrasions?  The part of his report made public states the abrasions around the lower wound. Vanezis assessed it was a bullet abrasion and dirt ring while he assessed it was actually a muzzle burn aka muzzle imprint.

You claim to have inside information but don't even understand with specificity what he was claiming.  You only know the conclusion he came to was that the moderator wasn't attached.  Despite not understanding his argument and thus not being able to be in a position to evaluate the merits of his claims you simply believe him though the CCRC and COA said his conclusions could not be trusted- in part because he himself said more work needs to be done to prove his claims to be true.  Only a fool would accept his claims at true under such circumstances.



« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 04:06:06 AM by Admin »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Expanation and evaluation of Fowler's claims
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2015, 04:39:53 AM »
These are graphic but people who don't mind blood and guts will be able to look at the various types of wound characteristics:

http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f10/gunshot-wound-deaths-100661/

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Expanation and evaluation of Fowler's claims
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2015, 05:12:48 AM »








Note how it says with hard contact wounds it is not uncommon for muzzle imprints aka muzzle abrasions aka muzzle burns to be left. In saying it is not uncommon that means it happens but not a majority let alone all the time.  Muzzle imprints are only left with hard contact wounds so if there is a muzzle imprint you know it was a hard contact wound but if there isn't a muzzle imprint that doesn't mean it wasn't a hard contact wound because it doesn't always happen. So absent a muzzle imprint you have to look for other indicia of a hard contact wound.

Some of that other indicia is found by looking microscopically at the tissue while some can be seen with the naked eye.

Vanazis saw no muzzle imprint on either wound.  Fowler said in his opinion Vanezis screwed up and misinterpreted a muzzle imprint as a bullet abrasion and dirt ring. He said he would have to do more work to prove his claim to be fact. 

 

 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Expanation and evaluation of Fowler's claims
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2015, 04:05:52 PM »
I can recognize your points can be discredited. Its good to see you finally realise one needs a serious brain deficiency to believe your points indisputable.


Its nice to see we finally agree on something ay Scip 8((()*/
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 04:06:42 AM by Admin »

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Expanation and evaluation of Fowler's claims
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2015, 04:23:59 PM »
I can recognize your points can be discredited. Its good to see you finally realise one needs a serious brain deficiency to believe your points indisputable.


Its nice to see we finally agree on something ay Scip  8((()*/

Your supposed secret inside information was the court ruling I just quoted from.  I am the one who pointed it out to you on Blue.
 
You have demonstrated you don't understand what Fowler was claiming other than understanding the conclusion he came to was that in his unsupported opinion the moderator was not used.  You don't understand why or how he came to this conclusion.  You choose to believe it despite not knowing why he came to it.  That is something only an irrational person would do.

After being spoonfed so many times you would comprehend that he asserted the rifle caused an abrasion on Sheila's body.  The usual name for this is muzzle imprint but it is also known as a muzzle abrasion or muzzle burn.  The term the COA appeal decision uses is muzzle abrasion.

His report that you claim to possess refers to Vanezis' description of the wounds and shortly thereafter says, "In my professional opinion, the complex just described of the lower entrance and two abrasions is consistent with the rifle not having a silencer." He is asserting the lower entrance wound had a muzzle abrasion and that this muzzle abrasion was consistent with the muzzle of the rifle sans moderator.

Despite being spoonfed so you cna understand with specificity what he was claiming you choose to play dumb and say you don't know in full what he was arguing you only know his conclusion was that the moderator wasn't attached when she was shot.  Only a stupid person would believe him without understanding his arguments and thus not testing it.  But worse here the CCRC and COA vetted the claim and found it without any support and even noted that he himself admitted he would need to do more testing to prove his claims. They also noted he failed to deal with the evidence that contradicted his claims.  One has to be a biased fool to accept his claims as true under such circumstances. 



« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 04:09:52 AM by Admin »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Expanation and evaluation of Fowler's claims
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2015, 04:29:36 PM »








Note how it says with hard contact wounds it is not uncommon for muzzle imprints aka muzzle abrasions aka muzzle burns to be left. In saying it is not uncommon that means it happens but not a majority let alone all the time.  Muzzle imprints are only left with hard contact wounds so if there is a muzzle imprint you know it was a hard contact wound but if there isn't a muzzle imprint that doesn't mean it wasn't a hard contact wound because it doesn't always happen. So absent a muzzle imprint you have to look for other indicia of a hard contact wound.

Some of that other indicia is found by looking microscopically at the tissue while some can be seen with the naked eye.

Vanazis saw no muzzle imprint on either wound.  Fowler said in his opinion Vanezis screwed up and misinterpreted a muzzle imprint as a bullet abrasion and dirt ring. He said he would have to do more work to prove his claim to be fact. 

 

I have read this before its in a book I have called "Forensic Medicine the Clinical and Pathological Aspect".  I have several more text books that goes into more details on contact wounds. I will upload the some of the content later tonight once I finish work. Hopefully we can have a constructive discussion but I wont hold my breath

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Expanation and evaluation of Fowler's claims
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2015, 07:01:05 PM »
I have read this before its in a book I have called "Forensic Medicine the Clinical and Pathological Aspect".  I have several more text books that goes into more details on contact wounds. I will upload the some of the content later tonight once I finish work. Hopefully we can have a constructive discussion but I wont hold my breath

If you are unwilling to address and debate what Fowler was claiming there is not much to discuss. This thread is about what Fowler was alleging and why such claims failed. There are other threads on general forensic issues.  A general discussion should take place in one of those or a new one.



 

 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli