Author Topic: About drawback or backspatter.  (Read 91459 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2015, 10:41:56 PM »
(See the top of your post above).  Karma dear, Karma  @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

We can all see when you start losing the argument.  Posters and guests can judge for themselves. 

I stand by my previous comments on this thread and others can carry out their own research and form their own opinions.

Holls -V- Scip  ?>)()<

How am I losing?  I have effectively demonstrated you don't care about the facts at all.  You have decided to seek out anything you can spin to try to pretend that 22 calibers won't cause drawback so you can then resort to your theories about Sheila's mental health where you decide you know better than her own doctor who actually spoke to her verus you having practically know knowlege about her.  You are ignoring the experts about the medical issues, forensics and mental health for your agenda.

Your own expert wrote, "Occasionally, pieces of skin and/or adispose tissue have been found inside the weapon."  In which instances?  Contact headshots mainly and even then only occasionally. You made up that tissue is always present with blood in drawback though your own source said occasionally.  This is what you do with everything you discuss.  You just make up what suits you and ignroe the facts.

You lost the debate long ago and just look foolish at this point.

« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 05:53:23 PM by John »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2015, 12:27:55 PM »
Parker-Hale must have used 17 baffles pre-1985 like the Bamber's moderator, then they found that 15 gave just as good a sound reduction as 17, so standardized on fewer and saved very slightly in manufacturing costs.

Depends how it was reconfigured I guess:

- The overall length shortened with all other components and expansion chamber remaining the same to cover the loss of  two baffles?

- The overall length remaining the same but expansion chamber extended to account for the loss of two baffles with all other components remaining the same?

- The overall length remaining the same with the expansion chamber remaining the same but the width of the baffles being widened to account for the loss of two.

Have I missed any other permutations?

Might be a save in manufacturing costs or a marketing edge by making it more efficient in terms of power and accuracy with little or no trade off in an increase in sound?



Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2015, 01:55:09 PM »
How am I losing?  I have effectively demonstrated you don't care about the facts at all.  You have decided to seek out anything you can spin to try to pretend that 22 calibers won't cause drawback so you can then resort to your theories about Sheila's mental health where you decide you know better than her own doctor who actually spoke to her verus you having practically know knowlege about her.  You are ignoring the experts about the medical issues, forensics and mental health for your agenda.

Your own expert wrote, "Occasionally, pieces of skin and/or adispose tissue have been found inside the weapon."  In which instances?  Contact headshots mainly and even then only occasionally. You made up that tissue is always present with blood in drawback though your own source said occasionally.  This is what you do with everything you discuss.  You just make up what suits you and ignroe the facts.

You lost the debate long ago and just look foolish at this point.

You deploy a number of tactics when you start losing the argument.  In your post above you attempt to cloud the issues by derailing the thread and referring to SC's mental health issues.  And of course the usual personal comments and name calling.  If you wish to discuss SC's mental health issues there are a number of existing threads.  This thread is to discuss draw-back which you created and called out to me to come play with Scip...

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6061.msg222006#msg222006

So here I am ready to play  8(>((

Please find me a post of mine where I have stated draw-back will not occur with a .22?  I have repeatedly stated it is unlikely.  There's a difference between impossible and unlikely.  It might well prove to be impossible when the silencer is factored in.   

This is what Malcom Fletcher told the jury and judges at the CoA hearing:


http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

457. Mr Fletcher, the firearms expert, gave evidence to explain how blood got into the moderator if it was attached, or into the barrel if there was no moderator attached. He said that the mechanism was complicated and not then fully appreciated. However, the expanding gas when the bullet left the muzzle was under normal circumstances distributed into the atmosphere. However with a contact shot there was no opportunity for this escape and the gas would follow the bullet into the wound as it expanded. Back pressure would then build up forcing the gas back out of the wound taking with it blood and tissue which would in effect be blasted back into the barrel if there was no moderator or into the moderator if one was attached. He said that even without direct contact, the same effect might occur but only if the gap between the end of the barrel, or the moderator if attached, and the skin was less than one millimetre. He said that the likelihood of such an occurrence was to an extent dependent on the part of the body to which the shot was delivered and the amount of blood present at that point.

458. If the shot to Shelia Caffell, which was a contact shot to the throat, had been fired without the moderator in place, he would have expected to find blood in the barrel of the gun. If the moderator was attached it was "virtually certain" that Sheila Caffell's blood would get into the moderator. There was, he said "a very slight possibility of it not happening, but very slight".


You will note his explanation to account for blood from a wound being drawn back into the barrel of a gun or silencer is based on the gases which are generated by the bullet being discharged from the weapon.  Normally these gases are distributed in the atmosphere.  However with a contact wound or near contact wound (within 1mm - 2mm of skin) there's no opportunity for these gases to distribute in the atmosphere so effectively they enter the wound and are then propelled backwards taking blood and usually skin tissue with them.  What Malcolm Fletcher has failed to take into account is that by using a silencer most of the gases are discharged in the silencer making it extremely unlikely that draw-back would occur.

It is possible to set up a reconstruction to confirm one way or the other.  Even if draw-back takes place it will determine whether blood could be drawn back as far as the 8th baffle and whether it would have distributed the way in which it is claimed it was found.   I have been in email contact with Dr Nordby.   A letter is winging its way to JB for his approval to undertake a reconstruction.  I have financial backers and the world's press are waiting in the wings  ?>)()<

How silencers work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-keuXw5xfRs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfNFbpkOgqA
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2015, 02:00:50 PM »
Depends how it was reconfigured I guess:

- The overall length shortened with all other components and expansion chamber remaining the same to cover the loss of  two baffles?

- The overall length remaining the same but expansion chamber extended to account for the loss of two baffles with all other components remaining the same?

- The overall length remaining the same with the expansion chamber remaining the same but the width of the baffles being widened to account for the loss of two.

Have I missed any other permutations?

Might be a save in manufacturing costs or a marketing edge by making it more efficient in terms of power and accuracy with little or no trade off in an increase in sound?
Think the overall length remained more or less the same - there are slight variations in length according to the source. The latest from the current seller is 173mm. (2015) whereas the Bamber moderator was 176mm. (1984).  I suspect the baffles also stayed the same thickness (width) as they probably had thousands in stock. So maybe less metal was shaved from the inside circumference to create the ledge upon which the first baffle rested, making the expansion chamber larger with no detrimental effect on the moderator's sound reduction qualities, confirmed by testing in an R&D department if they had one. So your second option is probably the right one.

Some shooters seem to like them, others don't.  Silly me would go for the looks... they're slimmer, less bulky and match the barrel colour better than other ones, though not as efficient at moderation.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2015, 03:58:13 PM »
More info re how suppressors (silencers) work:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umzYPNYjEiY

Malcolm Fletcher:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19861014&id=EoJDAAAAIBAJ&sjid=q6UMAAAAIBAJ&pg=1622,3082380

Malcolm Fletcher states in the newspaper article above that he carried out tests on the gun and silencer but this appears to be based on the length of the rifle and silencer only ie to show that a female of SC's height could not pull the trigger.  He doesn't appear to have taken into account other measurements eg length of reach/arm length/span would also determine a person's ability to reach the trigger.  See boxer Sonny Liston's arm length/span which doesn't always correlate to a person's overall height:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm_span

Anyway all of this is a red herring and totally irrelevant as it is clear SC could not have shot herself in the bedroom and returned the silencer to the gun cupboard regardless of whether she could reach the trigger or not.  It does place a question mark over Malcolm Fletcher's competence?

He doesn't make any reference to a reconstruction in terms of establishing if the draw-back effect would be possible with a .22 Anshutz semi-auto rifle model 525, .22 Eley subsonic hollow point bullets and Parker Hale sound moderator (silencer).   &%+((£

He also makes reference to a mechanism fault which made unloading the magazine difficult (I assume they mean loading?).  Does this mechanism fault relate to the rifle model in question or the Bamber owned rifle?  If the Bamber owned rifle then it was probably damaged during the events.  If a piece broke off the stock then other parts may have been damaged too?

What else is known about Malcolm Fletcher eg other cases, his credentials etc?   

 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2015, 04:51:34 PM »
Here's another press article with comment from Malcolm Fletcher.  He states there were three contact wounds.  One to SC and two to Nicholas.  Surely this begs the question why draw-back occurred with SC but not Nicholas? 

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19861015&id=E4JDAAAAIBAJ&sjid=q6UMAAAAIBAJ&pg=4879,3440832

It appears forensic scientist Glynis Howard also carried out the experiment based on reach.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2015, 06:03:52 PM »
You deploy a number of tactics when you start losing the argument.  In your post above you attempt to cloud the issues by derailing the thread and referring to SC's mental health issues.  And of course the usual personal comments and name calling.  If you wish to discuss SC's mental health issues there are a number of existing threads.  This thread is to discuss draw-back which you created and called out to me to come play with Scip...

How am I clouding the issues?  I am the one who posted the 3 mechanisms that cause drawback and discussed how important it is to assess the skin and lood attributes in a location to assess whether drawback will occur.  You want to ignore such an just try twisting sources to preend they say things they don't so you cna misrepresent that drawback would not be likely to occur. 

I simply brought up you do so in order to pretend Sheila did it so you can then advance your mental health agenda where you engage in the same sort of nonsense. 

Your sources never stand for the propositions you assert you always distort them beyond recongition.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6061.msg222006#msg222006

So here I am ready to play  8(>((

Please find me a post of mine where I have stated draw-back will not occur with a .22?  I have repeatedly stated it is unlikely.  There's a difference between impossible and unlikely.  It might well prove to be impossible when the silencer is factored in.

You produced no valid evidence that it is unlikely.  You produced a source that merely claimed it is more likely for a high caliber headshot to produce back spatter than a shot to the trunk from a 22.  That doesn't say a shot form a 22 is unlikely to cause spatter it says a shot to the head by a high caliber weapon is even more likely to produce spatter.  In the meantime the source offered no evidence to establish the claim as true.  The truth is that there are parts of the trunk more likely to result in spatter than the head.  You have to do a detialed look at a locaiton. But in any event the claim it is even more likely for a high caliber head shot to cause spatter still doesn't say a shot from a 22 is unlikely.  You twisted things.

You twisted even worse when you said that there would have to be tittue in the weapon if it were drawback when your own source said that only happens occasionally and didn't discuss if it ever happens in trunk shots.     


This is what Malcom Fletcher told the jury and judges at the CoA hearing:


http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

457. Mr Fletcher, the firearms expert, gave evidence to explain how blood got into the moderator if it was attached, or into the barrel if there was no moderator attached. He said that the mechanism was complicated and not then fully appreciated. However, the expanding gas when the bullet left the muzzle was under normal circumstances distributed into the atmosphere. However with a contact shot there was no opportunity for this escape and the gas would follow the bullet into the wound as it expanded. Back pressure would then build up forcing the gas back out of the wound taking with it blood and tissue which would in effect be blasted back into the barrel if there was no moderator or into the moderator if one was attached. He said that even without direct contact, the same effect might occur but only if the gap between the end of the barrel, or the moderator if attached, and the skin was less than one millimetre. He said that the likelihood of such an occurrence was to an extent dependent on the part of the body to which the shot was delivered and the amount of blood present at that point.

458. If the shot to Shelia Caffell, which was a contact shot to the throat, had been fired without the moderator in place, he would have expected to find blood in the barrel of the gun. If the moderator was attached it was "virtually certain" that Sheila Caffell's blood would get into the moderator. There was, he said "a very slight possibility of it not happening, but very slight".


You will note his explanation to account for blood from a wound being drawn back into the barrel of a gun or silencer is based on the gases which are generated by the bullet being discharged from the weapon.  Normally these gases are distributed in the atmosphere.  However with a contact wound or near contact wound (within 1mm - 2mm of skin) there's no opportunity for these gases to distribute in the atmosphere so effectively they enter the wound and are then propelled backwards taking blood and usually skin tissue with them.  What Malcolm Fletcher has failed to take into account is that by using a silencer most of the gases are discharged in the silencer making it extremely unlikely that draw-back would occur.

It is possible to set up a reconstruction to confirm one way or the other.  Even if draw-back takes place it will determine whether blood could be drawn back as far as the 8th baffle and whether it would have distributed the way in which it is claimed it was found.   I have been in email contact with Dr Nordby.   A letter is winging its way to JB for his approval to undertake a reconstruction.  I have financial backers and the world's press are waiting in the wings  ?>)()<

How silencers work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-keuXw5xfRs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfNFbpkOgqA

And note how I explained to you there are 3 different causes of backspatter, two of which are unrelated to the gases.  Two of them happen regardless of the distance the gun is from the weapon when fired BUT can only be drawn more than a few MM inside the weapon when the shot is a contact shot.  Gases still escape from the moderator into a wound mind unless the moderator has vents which the one in question doesn't..

Note also that coroners have determined FOR SURE drawback cna be foudn in moderators as there are documented cases so in addition to testing there are real World observations that result in such.

The 8th baffle is only a few inches deep and drawback will travel that far without a problem. No one reported seeing any blood on the 8th baffle only the defense found blood there and it was microscopic.  The smallest blood travels the furthest and a little blood has been observed deeper than where it usually is found.  A significant amount of blood found beyond a few inchest would be suspicious.  The blood that was found on the opposite end  was detemrined not to be drawback because it would not be able to get that far but rather to have gotten there by some other method such as transferred from the gloves of the person who unscrewed it.

The defense couldn't find any experts willing to say it was unlikely for drawback to occur from a neck wound in the lcoation of her fatal wound.

The defense couldn't find anyone to say drawback would not reach the first 8 baffles. 

The data from coroners and studies is that drawback from 22 calibers travels several inches so the data confirms the possiiblity it was drawback.

The assertion that her blood would have gotten in the rifle is unrebutted. The gases certianly wouldn't have been in any way inhibited if the rifle had no moderator. So you can't even attempt to say all 3 causes of backspatter woudl not have interacted.  You found no source discussing the area of the body where she suffered the shot and what impact the 3 causes of drawback would have in such area.  You have nothing to refute the assertion that drawback woudl be virtually certian to occur in that area and thus would be found int he rifle had it not been attached.

You have nothign to say drawback can't end up in a mdoerator.

You have nothign at all to suggest the blood was planted in the moderator and that is the only way it could have gotten there other than drawback.

You have nothing at all except the desire to ignore the evidence so you can pretend Sheial did it so you can then advance your mental health agenda. 

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Myster

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2015, 06:08:20 PM »
He also makes reference to a mechanism fault which made unloading the magazine difficult (I assume they mean loading?).  Does this mechanism fault relate to the rifle model in question or the Bamber owned rifle?  If the Bamber owned rifle then it was probably damaged during the events.  If a piece broke off the stock then other parts may have been damaged too?
No, he means unfastening an empty magazine from the rifle because you have to pull back on a latch to release a spring lock which prevents it from coming loose. To fasten it back on you just push it into the receiving slot so it clicks and locks itself in automatically, hence easier than unfastening. So some fault to do with the latch and/or spring lock. The fault was on the Bamber rifle, although I have read on some gun forums that the Anschutz firing mechanism in general was prone to jamming. I reckon any part of the mechanism could have been damaged because of the heavy-handed treatment the rifle received.  It was enough to break a piece off the butt when NB was "putting up a spirited defence", as Vanezis pointed out at trial.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2015, 08:29:11 PM »
How am I clouding the issues?  I am the one who posted the 3 mechanisms that cause drawback and discussed how important it is to assess the skin and lood attributes in a location to assess whether drawback will occur.  You want to ignore such an just try twisting sources to preend they say things they don't so you cna misrepresent that drawback would not be likely to occur. 

I simply brought up you do so in order to pretend Sheila did it so you can then advance your mental health agenda where you engage in the same sort of nonsense. 

Your sources never stand for the propositions you assert you always distort them beyond recongition.

You produced no valid evidence that it is unlikely.  You produced a source that merely claimed it is more likely for a high caliber headshot to produce back spatter than a shot to the trunk from a 22.  That doesn't say a shot form a 22 is unlikely to cause spatter it says a shot to the head by a high caliber weapon is even more likely to produce spatter.  In the meantime the source offered no evidence to establish the claim as true.  The truth is that there are parts of the trunk more likely to result in spatter than the head.  You have to do a detialed look at a locaiton. But in any event the claim it is even more likely for a high caliber head shot to cause spatter still doesn't say a shot from a 22 is unlikely.  You twisted things.

You twisted even worse when you said that there would have to be tittue in the weapon if it were drawback when your own source said that only happens occasionally and didn't discuss if it ever happens in trunk shots.     


And note how I explained to you there are 3 different causes of backspatter, two of which are unrelated to the gases.  Two of them happen regardless of the distance the gun is from the weapon when fired BUT can only be drawn more than a few MM inside the weapon when the shot is a contact shot.  Gases still escape from the moderator into a wound mind unless the moderator has vents which the one in question doesn't..

Note also that coroners have determined FOR SURE drawback cna be foudn in moderators as there are documented cases so in addition to testing there are real World observations that result in such.

The 8th baffle is only a few inches deep and drawback will travel that far without a problem. No one reported seeing any blood on the 8th baffle only the defense found blood there and it was microscopic.  The smallest blood travels the furthest and a little blood has been observed deeper than where it usually is found.  A significant amount of blood found beyond a few inchest would be suspicious.  The blood that was found on the opposite end  was detemrined not to be drawback because it would not be able to get that far but rather to have gotten there by some other method such as transferred from the gloves of the person who unscrewed it.

The defense couldn't find any experts willing to say it was unlikely for drawback to occur from a neck wound in the lcoation of her fatal wound.

The defense couldn't find anyone to say drawback would not reach the first 8 baffles. 

The data from coroners and studies is that drawback from 22 calibers travels several inches so the data confirms the possiiblity it was drawback.

The assertion that her blood would have gotten in the rifle is unrebutted. The gases certianly wouldn't have been in any way inhibited if the rifle had no moderator. So you can't even attempt to say all 3 causes of backspatter woudl not have interacted.  You found no source discussing the area of the body where she suffered the shot and what impact the 3 causes of drawback would have in such area.  You have nothing to refute the assertion that drawback woudl be virtually certian to occur in that area and thus would be found int he rifle had it not been attached.

You have nothign to say drawback can't end up in a mdoerator.

You have nothign at all to suggest the blood was planted in the moderator and that is the only way it could have gotten there other than drawback.

You have nothing at all except the desire to ignore the evidence so you can pretend Sheial did it so you can then advance your mental health agenda.

And note (highlighted in your post above) how I will wait to hear from Dr Nordby rather than the views of someone who clearly doesn't know what he is talking about.

With regard to your post as follows and the three sources (subcutaneous gas effect, temporary cavity, tail splashing) that you keep banging on about in your post as follows:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6061.msg222363#msg222363

You will note your source (author/ess) is referring to back spatter and not draw-back.  I have already asked you to use the correct terms ie draw-back.  If your author/ess is unable to use the correct terminology what does that tell you about his/her competence?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6061.msg222516#msg222516

Your long waffly post as follows starts off:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6061.msg223614#msg223614

"How am I clouding the issues?  I am the one who posted the 3 mechanisms that cause drawback and discussed how important it is to assess the skin and lood attributes in a location to assess whether drawback will occur".

Except you haven't posted the 3 mechanisms that cause draw-back have you?  Your author/ess in the following post is referring to back spatter.  Not once does he/she refer to draw back.  Either you are deliberately twisting (for whatever reason(s)) or you are some sort of complete numpty.   

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6061.msg222516#msg222516

Please refer to Dr Nordby's explanation of back spatter and draw-back in the following on page 6:

http://www.finalanalysisforensics.com/media/pdfs/BasicBloodstainPatternAnalysisTEXT.pdf

Dr Nordby's cv:

http://www.finalanalysisforensics.com/media/pdfs/Jon-Nordby-CV-140813.pdf

Dr Nordby's website:

http://www.finalanalysisforensics.com/

Unless you can raise something substantially new I will not be wasting my time with you further.  There's enough information above for posters and guests to make an informed view.







Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2015, 08:43:16 PM »
No, he means unfastening an empty magazine from the rifle because you have to pull back on a latch to release a spring lock which prevents it from coming loose. To fasten it back on you just push it into the receiving slot so it clicks and locks itself in automatically, hence easier than unfastening. So some fault to do with the latch and/or spring lock. The fault was on the Bamber rifle, although I have read on some gun forums that the Anschutz firing mechanism in general was prone to jamming. I reckon any part of the mechanism could have been damaged because of the heavy-handed treatment the rifle received.  It was enough to break a piece off the butt when NB was "putting up a spirited defence", as Vanezis pointed out at trial.

 *&(+(+  I understand now. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2015, 09:40:22 PM »
*&(+(+  I understand now.
I should have said pushed rather than pulled, because the pie-shaped triangular piece behind the magazine has to be forced upwards with a finger or thumb to release it.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2015, 12:58:00 AM »
And note (highlighted in your post above) how I will wait to hear from Dr Nordby rather than the views of someone who clearly doesn't know what he is talking about.





With regard to your post as follows and the three sources (subcutaneous gas effect, temporary cavity, tail splashing) that you keep banging on about in your post as follows:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6061.msg222363#msg222363

You will note your source (author/ess) is referring to back spatter and not draw-back.  I have already asked you to use the correct terms ie draw-back.  If your author/ess is unable to use the correct terminology what does that tell you about his/her competence?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6061.msg222516#msg222516

Your long waffly post as follows starts off:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6061.msg223614#msg223614

"How am I clouding the issues?  I am the one who posted the 3 mechanisms that cause drawback and discussed how important it is to assess the skin and lood attributes in a location to assess whether drawback will occur".

Except you haven't posted the 3 mechanisms that cause draw-back have you?  Your author/ess in the following post is referring to back spatter.  Not once does he/she refer to draw back.  Either you are deliberately twisting (for whatever reason(s)) or you are some sort of complete numpty.   

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6061.msg222516#msg222516

Please refer to Dr Nordby's explanation of back spatter and draw-back in the following on page 6:

http://www.finalanalysisforensics.com/media/pdfs/BasicBloodstainPatternAnalysisTEXT.pdf

Dr Nordby's cv:

http://www.finalanalysisforensics.com/media/pdfs/Jon-Nordby-CV-140813.pdf

Dr Nordby's website:

http://www.finalanalysisforensics.com/

Unless you can raise something substantially new I will not be wasting my time with you further.  There's enough information above for posters and guests to make an informed view.

You decided the prosecution experts don't know what they are talking about simply because you don't like it that they establish Jeremy is guilty and that inhibits your ability to raise your ridiculous pschoanalsiss of Sheila and June.

You thus try searching for anything you can cherrry pick to try to pretend they were wrong including claims by Norby that clothing and other objects can inhibit backspatter so a very detailed look at the exact circumstances must be made. Nothing he said in any way undermines the expert testimony used at trial.  You are just embarrassing yourself trying to pretend otherwise.

In the meantime far from Norby addressing the specific details I noted Norby provides a very simplistic and nongeneralized descritption of drawback and back spatter.  That doesn't mean what I posted is wrong.  Indeed numerous sources mention such 3 causes.  Try researching them.  No that would force you to admit you are full of crap so instead you just pretend only gases can result in drawback though your own source mentions spatter as happening in non contact wounds as well.  How can that be if the gases cause the spatter?  Oops big hole in your claims.

In the meantime, all your source says is that moderators and so forth might impact it.  That you intentionally decide to interpret as meaning makes it impossible for drawback to enter a moderator because that suits your agenda.

Aside from in intentional misinterpretation it still fails to help you estbalish her blood would not have been in the rifle itself had the moderator not been attached.  Just as the defense keeps ignoring that so do you.   

By the way the author of the work I posted is a renowned German Pathologist (Dr. Michael Tsokos)
who is a MD and he footnoted his claims to provide support while your source didn't because it didn't even get into enough specifics. 

"In this new volume of the globally recognized Forensic Pathology Reviews, Dr. Michael Tsokos has gathered chapters from the top experts in the field to reveal both the applied and scientific areas of expertise along the broad spectrum of forensics studies. Volume 5 piques the mind as leading forensic pathologists from the United States and around the world offer advanced insight into death caused environmental conditions, trauma, neuropathology, natural causes, and ballistics."


 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 01:27:28 AM by scipio_usmc »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2015, 06:47:49 AM »
More fun:

Vanezis noting the hemmoraging inside her neck from the first shot:



The significance of that for backspatter:





« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 06:53:19 AM by scipio_usmc »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2015, 04:27:56 PM »
More info re how suppressors (silencers) work:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umzYPNYjEiY

Malcolm Fletcher:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19861014&id=EoJDAAAAIBAJ&sjid=q6UMAAAAIBAJ&pg=1622,3082380

Malcolm Fletcher states in the newspaper article above that he carried out tests on the gun and silencer but this appears to be based on the length of the rifle and silencer only ie to show that a female of SC's height could not pull the trigger.  He doesn't appear to have taken into account other measurements eg length of reach/arm length/span would also determine a person's ability to reach the trigger.  See boxer Sonny Liston's arm length/span which doesn't always correlate to a person's overall height:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm_span

Anyway all of this is a red herring and totally irrelevant as it is clear SC could not have shot herself in the bedroom and returned the silencer to the gun cupboard regardless of whether she could reach the trigger or not.  It does place a question mark over Malcolm Fletcher's competence?

He doesn't make any reference to a reconstruction in terms of establishing if the draw-back effect would be possible with a .22 Anshutz semi-auto rifle model 525, .22 Eley subsonic hollow point bullets and Parker Hale sound moderator (silencer).   &%+((£

He also makes reference to a mechanism fault which made unloading the magazine difficult (I assume they mean loading?).  Does this mechanism fault relate to the rifle model in question or the Bamber owned rifle?  If the Bamber owned rifle then it was probably damaged during the events.  If a piece broke off the stock then other parts may have been damaged too?

What else is known about Malcolm Fletcher eg other cases, his credentials etc?

When I said above SC could not have shot herself in the bedroom, returned the silencer to the gun cupboard and then shot herself again in the bedroom; I meant to say she could not have shot herself anywhere in the property, returned the silencer to the gun cupboard and then shot herself in the bedroom where she was found on the bedroom floor.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2015, 11:21:38 AM »
I thought I would post this and link it in to my facebook and twitter accounts for the benefit of my 4 facebook friends and 2 twitter followers  8)--))

A central plank of the prosecution's case is that blood found its way inside the silencer by the phenomenon known as draw-back.  This is caused when a gunshot wound is inflicted with the barrel of a gun (or silencer?) in contact with the skin.  Or close contact ie 1mm - 2mm away from the surface of the skin.  When the trigger of a gun is pulled it releases a propellant.  The propellant generates propulsion and moves the bullet, obviously at tremendous speed.  When the propellant is ignited by the release of the trigger it generates hot gases which travel along with the bullet and once outside the end of the guns barrel or silencer will dissipate in the atmosphere.  However when the guns barrel (or silencer?) are in contact with the skin or close contact (1mm - 2mm) the hot gas will be unable to dissipate in the atmosphere so it can be sucked into the wound and then propel backwards into the guns barrel (or silencer?) taking with it blood and often other biological material eg skin tissue, bone fragments from the wound.  As the blood sample found in silencer matched SC's blood type/group the prosecution claim JB shot SC using the silencer and then returned it to the gun cupboard.

There's a plethora of info on the internet and youtube vids explaining the above.  Google how a gun works, how a bullet works, how a silencer works etc.

At JB's 2002 CoA hearing the firearms expert employed by the Home Office, Malcolm Fletcher, told the jury the following:

457. Mr Fletcher, the firearms expert, gave evidence to explain how blood got into the moderator if it was attached, or into the barrel if there was no moderator attached. He said that the mechanism was complicated and not then fully appreciated. However, the expanding gas when the bullet left the muzzle was under normal circumstances distributed into the atmosphere. However with a contact shot there was no opportunity for this escape and the gas would follow the bullet into the wound as it expanded. Back pressure would then build up forcing the gas back out of the wound taking with it blood and tissue which would in effect be blasted back into the barrel if there was no moderator or into the moderator if one was attached. He said that even without direct contact, the same effect might occur but only if the gap between the end of the barrel, or the moderator if attached, and the skin was less than one millimetre. He said that the likelihood of such an occurrence was to an extent dependent on the part of the body to which the shot was delivered and the amount of blood present at that point.

458. If the shot to Shelia Caffell, which was a contact shot to the throat, had been fired without the moderator in place, he would have expected to find blood in the barrel of the gun. If the moderator was attached it was "virtually certain" that Sheila Caffell's blood would get into the moderator. There was, he said "a very slight possibility of it not happening, but very slight".

"Since the blood from inside the sound moderator belonged to the same group as Sheila Caffell, and since there was no blood inside the barrel of the rifle, I was led to the conclusion that Sheila Caffell had been shot whilst the sound moderator was fitted to the rifle."

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

At JB's trial the judge, Justice Drake, asked Malcolm Fletcher if there were any other possibilities to account for the blood being in the silencer.  He replied "The only other possibility is that it was put there deliberately".

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19861015&id=E4JDAAAAIBAJ&sjid=q6UMAAAAIBAJ&pg=4879,3440832

However what Malcolm Fletcher overlooked, either out of incompetence or being persuaded to be economical with the truth, is that a silencer reduces the gases ejected with the bullet quite considerably thus reducing the pounds per square inch (psi) from around 3000 psi to 60 psi.  With a silencer fitted to the guns barrel the bullet enters first an expansion chamber and then a number of baffles before it exits.  The expansion chamber and baffles allow the hot gases to expand and slow their release.  Meaning they dissipate in the silencer and the reduced amount that leaves the silencer does so slowly. 

The following animated second image depicts this beautifully 

http://www.industrytap.com/silencer-suppressor-inside-look-one-gun-enthusiasts-coolest-gadgets/26953

Dr Jon Nordby on page 6 states the following

"The draw-back effect can be observed in contact gunshot wounds but the effect(s) of compensators, suppressors and silencing devices as well as any other intervening items may alter the outcome."

http://www.finalanalysisforensics.com/media/pdfs/BasicBloodstainPatternAnalysisTEXT.pdf

This obviously puts a whole different complexion on the draw-back theory in JB's case and the central plank of the prosecution's case.

I think I am right in saying that Ann Eaton's husband, Peter Eaton, was a registered gun dealer.  I wonder if he was familiar with draw-back?   &%+((£ He was the person who handed the silencer to DS Jones having sat up drinking whisky with him  &%+((£

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3580

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3582

The victims' samples were handed to EP (see top of page):

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.msg2228#msg2228

I haven't seen this mentioned previously on either forum (Blue or Red).  Assuming it's new I can't take all the credit as without Scip starting up this thread - About drawback - I would not have researched the above.  So a big thanks to Scip  8@??)( 8((()*/ 

This also shows that without vigorous debate and opposing views we would not be able to move forward in our quest for answers, albeit that JB has been found guilty in a court of law  ?{)(**

« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 01:56:51 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?