Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?

[Mr Moderator]

Is there a cite somewhere to see what he actually said?

Do you mean on the first occasion, the second, in the documentary or in subsequent interviews?

Could we continue this particular theme in the appropriate thread.

[Carana]

Do you mean on the first occasion, the second, in the documentary or in subsequent interviews?

Could we continue this particular theme in the appropriate thread.

Sure. Back to topic:

What kind of hole was it that Rex Morgan noticed had a missing cover that evening? A cable pit or a storm drain? 5A was on a hill, so presumably some storm drains would have been in the vicinity to avoid rainwater gushing down it? If so, where were they and were they subject to any works at that time or not?

[Brietta]

Sure. Back to topic:

What kind of hole was it that Rex Morgan noticed had a missing cover that evening? A cable pit or a storm drain? 5A was on a hill, so presumably some storm drains would have been in the vicinity to avoid rainwater gushing down it? If so, where were they and were they subject to any works at that time or not?

The proximity to the McCann apartment makes it significant.  Is there any information that Rex Morgan's information was carried through?  I think it must have been, or surely it is one of the first places the new PJ and SY investigations would have checked out.

[Carana]

The proximity to the McCann apartment makes it significant.  Is there any information that Rex Morgan's information was carried through?  I think it must have been, or surely it is one of the first places the new PJ and SY investigations would have checked out.

I'm not sure how, so many years later.

Nor even by mid August (if the dating system is consistent with the US one, which it sometimes is).

External Inquiry Report

Date: 08-11-2007
Place: P da L

Executing Officers: dos Santos, Rodrigo and Ricardo Paiva

Description
On this date at about 14.30 we went to P da L where we personally contacted Engineer Pereira, already interviewed on page 1652, with the aim of being shown as exactly as possible the sites, where on 3rd May there were open trenches for the water, electricity and telephone networks, which were left open without any kind of supervision during the night of 3rd May.

Together with the works foreman, Sr Afonso, we were shown that on that specific date, two trenches were open, one located at Rua Helena do Nascimiento Batista (Photos 1 and 2 shown on the annexed map as Area 1) and another situated in Rua Direita (Photos 3 and 4, shown on the map as Area 2).

Using two pieces of red plastic tubing, the exact site of the areas where the open trenches were situated was indicated (see photos in annex).

Both men told us that the trenches were 1.20 m deep and 0.9m long and various plastic tubes of different sizes were placed within them for the water, electricity and telephone networks.

With relation to the type of soil that was on the trenches in question, we were told that was a rocky soil and that only using machinery would it be possible to carry out any kind of excavation.

But it was stated that after the opening of each trench a “regularisation” process is used at the base of the trench, clearing all the earth and rocks resulting from the digging and immediately the base of the trench is covered with pieces of rock or sand that act as support for the placing of the water pipes and the tubes inside which the electricity and phone cables pass.

We were told that on the morning of 4th May, when work resumed on the trenches, all the workers who were employed in opening the trenches, including the Engineer and the Foreman, already knew about the disappearance of an English girl from P da L, which is the reason that they carefully checked all the trenches that had been left open on the preceding night, in the eventuality that the girl could have fallen in by accident, however nothing was found.

They say that given the normal procedures followed in these kinds of works, it would be extremely difficult to bury or hide a human body, not only under the trenches in question without the grave being immediately detected by the workmen.

Signed

Page 3985 Photos Area 1:

Page 3986 Photos Area 2:


Page 3987 Map showing Areas 1 and 2 in relation to the Ocean Club:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CONSTRUCTION_WORKERS.htm

[Brietta]

I'm not sure how, so many years later.

Nor even by mid August (if the dating system is consistent with the US one, which it sometimes is).

External Inquiry Report

Date: 08-11-2007
Place: P da L

Executing Officers: dos Santos, Rodrigo and Ricardo Paiva

Description
On this date at about 14.30 we went to P da L where we personally contacted Engineer Pereira, already interviewed on page 1652, with the aim of being shown as exactly as possible the sites, where on 3rd May there were open trenches for the water, electricity and telephone networks, which were left open without any kind of supervision during the night of 3rd May.

Together with the works foreman, Sr Afonso, we were shown that on that specific date, two trenches were open, one located at Rua Helena do Nascimiento Batista (Photos 1 and 2 shown on the annexed map as Area 1) and another situated in Rua Direita (Photos 3 and 4, shown on the map as Area 2).

Using two pieces of red plastic tubing, the exact site of the areas where the open trenches were situated was indicated (see photos in annex).

Both men told us that the trenches were 1.20 m deep and 0.9m long and various plastic tubes of different sizes were placed within them for the water, electricity and telephone networks.

With relation to the type of soil that was on the trenches in question, we were told that was a rocky soil and that only using machinery would it be possible to carry out any kind of excavation.

But it was stated that after the opening of each trench a “regularisation” process is used at the base of the trench, clearing all the earth and rocks resulting from the digging and immediately the base of the trench is covered with pieces of rock or sand that act as support for the placing of the water pipes and the tubes inside which the electricity and phone cables pass.

We were told that on the morning of 4th May, when work resumed on the trenches, all the workers who were employed in opening the trenches, including the Engineer and the Foreman, already knew about the disappearance of an English girl from P da L, which is the reason that they carefully checked all the trenches that had been left open on the preceding night, in the eventuality that the girl could have fallen in by accident, however nothing was found.

They say that given the normal procedures followed in these kinds of works, it would be extremely difficult to bury or hide a human body, not only under the trenches in question without the grave being immediately detected by the workmen.

Signed

Page 3985 Photos Area 1:

Page 3986 Photos Area 2:


Page 3987 Map showing Areas 1 and 2 in relation to the Ocean Club:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CONSTRUCTION_WORKERS.htm

Does the date signify that this diligence was carried out as part of the Rebelo investigation?

[Brietta]

I'm not sure how, so many years later.

Nor even by mid August (if the dating system is consistent with the US one, which it sometimes is).

External Inquiry Report

Date: 08-11-2007
Place: P da L

Executing Officers: dos Santos, Rodrigo and Ricardo Paiva

Description
On this date at about 14.30 we went to P da L where we personally contacted Engineer Pereira, already interviewed on page 1652, with the aim of being shown as exactly as possible the sites, where on 3rd May there were open trenches for the water, electricity and telephone networks, which were left open without any kind of supervision during the night of 3rd May.

Together with the works foreman, Sr Afonso, we were shown that on that specific date, two trenches were open, one located at Rua Helena do Nascimiento Batista (Photos 1 and 2 shown on the annexed map as Area 1) and another situated in Rua Direita (Photos 3 and 4, shown on the map as Area 2).

Using two pieces of red plastic tubing, the exact site of the areas where the open trenches were situated was indicated (see photos in annex).

Both men told us that the trenches were 1.20 m deep and 0.9m long and various plastic tubes of different sizes were placed within them for the water, electricity and telephone networks.

With relation to the type of soil that was on the trenches in question, we were told that was a rocky soil and that only using machinery would it be possible to carry out any kind of excavation.

But it was stated that after the opening of each trench a “regularisation” process is used at the base of the trench, clearing all the earth and rocks resulting from the digging and immediately the base of the trench is covered with pieces of rock or sand that act as support for the placing of the water pipes and the tubes inside which the electricity and phone cables pass.

We were told that on the morning of 4th May, when work resumed on the trenches, all the workers who were employed in opening the trenches, including the Engineer and the Foreman, already knew about the disappearance of an English girl from P da L, which is the reason that they carefully checked all the trenches that had been left open on the preceding night, in the eventuality that the girl could have fallen in by accident, however nothing was found.

They say that given the normal procedures followed in these kinds of works, it would be extremely difficult to bury or hide a human body, not only under the trenches in question without the grave being immediately detected by the workmen.

Signed

Page 3985 Photos Area 1:

Page 3986 Photos Area 2:


Page 3987 Map showing Areas 1 and 2 in relation to the Ocean Club:[/b]
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CONSTRUCTION_WORKERS.htm

Was the junction identified in Rex Morgan's statement the one at the bottom right within the OC circle?

[Carana]

Personally, I find it unlikely that she did wander out of her own accord for numerous reasons that I've mentioned on other threads.

For the sake of argument, it may be a remote possibility. Another possibility is that she was dumped in one by whoever took her.

Picking up on this:

We were told that on the morning of 4th May, when work resumed on the trenches, all the workers who were employed in opening the trenches, including the Engineer and the Foreman, already knew about the disappearance of an English girl from P da L, which is the reason that they carefully checked all the trenches that had been left open on the preceding night, in the eventuality that the girl could have fallen in by accident, however nothing was found.

The pics of red tubes (when were these taken?) don't correspond to manhole covers.

Did the works only concern cable pits?

Would any labourer (possibly casual) admit to forgetting to replace a storm drain cover, if ever that is what Rex Morgan noticed?

If what Morgan had seen was indeed a storm drain, where would the rainwater flow have gone? To the sea? If the engineer was only asked in mid-August, did anyone check - in early May - where any such water would have ended up? Were any police divers tasked to check?

[Heriberto Janosch]

The manholes near block 5 are regularly disinfected against cockroaches (told by the disinfection men).

Please see the pics at Appendix L at bottom of http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html

Could anyone of you put the pics here, please?

[Carana]

Does the date signify that this diligence was carried out as part of the Rebelo investigation?

There has been confusion as to the dating system used when in numerical form.

In any event, it was either 11 August, or 8 November, i.e. not early May.

[Alfred R Jones]

Keeps the public happy don't it?

Would you care to expand on that statement?

[Lace]

I don't think Madeleine would have met the same fate as Aisling Symes.


Firstly I agree with what Kate McCann said,   that no three year old would bother shutting gates after them, especially one situated at the top of steps.

Secondly,   I tend to agree with one of the specialists who said if Madeleine had wandered out she would have been drawn towards the lights and sounds of the Ocean Club.


Lastly and this is just my opinion,   I would think a child of almost four would have put shoes on before venturing outside.

[Brietta]

The manholes near block 5 are regularly disinfected against cockroaches (told by the disinfection men).

Please see the pics at Appendix L at bottom of http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html

Could anyone of you put the pics here, please?

Thank you for that information, Heri.

The photographs you have put up in your blog show quite clearly that it would be impossible for a young child's body to pass through the diameter of the pipes.  Therefore if they are regularly opened to be disinfected against cockroaches I think it would be safe to assume that Madeleine didn't disappear into one either by accident or design, or her remains would have been discovered before now.



THE MANHOLES

I saw manholes in all Praia da Luz streets, and even in the small isolated hill to the West. I took photos of many of them, including the inside of two, where you can see that the connecting pipes are too small in diameter for a toddler body. And it is not impossible but not easy to open it without proper tools, as the ones used by the maintenance personnel. Were all these manholes properly searched?
http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html

[John]

Thanks for supplying that link Heriberto and to Anna for putting the photos up, I have resized them.

There would appear to be lots of these sewer related manholes around but there must also be storm drains which are much larger but they are harder to trace from ground level.

The drains aside, there were reports of open trench roadworks going on in the area at the time of Madeleine's disappearance, I wonder if any pictures were ever captured of them?

[Alice Purjorick]

Blimey this is turning into a municipal engineering thread 
Quick guide.
Telecoms; water; gas ; electricity commonly laid following the natural grade at about 1m minimum cover. There will be draw pits and inspection chambers etc.
Foul starts at property with about 600 cover laid to falls starting with 100 diameter pipe increasing in size as more properties are added. The one where the guys boot is in shot appears to be foul.
Storm laid to falls varying sizes up to 3000 or more. The dry manhole above is either a top of run storm drain or foul not connected upstream. My money would be on storm as it not benched very well and is dry. Both may have long sea outfalls. Then just to bu***r things up some places still use combined systems like Tenerife yuk.
Manhole covers varying classes (weights) according to whether in foot way or highway with HA loadings. Light ones are one man lift out with keys; big ones you will need a dribollic lifter. As a matter of interest most storm drains will have grab chains in the manholes at the downstream end when the diameter is 450 or greater.
I'll send the bill later  *&*%£
Jeez.

[Anna]

This post was by pegasus, but shows open trenches on 3rd May, I'm sure he won't mind me reposting them
I have added the photos

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4014.msg151592#msg151592

Map of two open trench locations closer to the apartment than the church

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3987.jpg
Photos of filled-in trench (area 1)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3985.jpg
Photos of filled-in trench (area 2)


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3986.jpg

These two trenches were open on evening 3rd May.
For water, phone, and electric, they were 1.2m deep x 0.9m wide.
In the photos pieces of brown/red pipe have been placed to mark the linear extent of each trench.
The utility workers on 4th knew of the disappearance and checked the trenches before continuing.