Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?

[Heriberto Janosch]

Scotland Yard searched a water plant last year, I don't know if it was the one in the photograph

**snip
Euclides Monteiro was working at a water and sewage plant in Lagos, four miles from the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz where Madeleine was staying with her parents, Gerry and Kate.

Ex-colleagues of Monteiro, who was born in Cape Verde, have suggested that his duties included visiting other treatment plants in the area.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2651846/Search-Madeleine-McCann-new-site-hard-water-treatment-plant-linked-suspect.html#ixzz3TbAIKJd3

It is not the same station.

[Alice Purjorick]

This is a serious suggestion so no need for a dose of random eraser.
Why don't our two foreign correspondents go to the Municipal Offices hand over a few escudos euros and buy copies of the "as built" drawings for the underground services in PdL?
That way we will have the full SP with no guessing.

[ShiningInLuz]

IIRC the pic shows the zone where I met the disinfection men (CRTA type). It was between Rua do Ramalhete and Rua Direita, near the road to Lagos ...

To repeat, I am not challenging what you posted as I can find that CRTA is common in Portugal.  I will pop off tomorrow to the area you have ringed.

What a jolly thing to do on a Saturday in Luz - search for a CRTA manhole cover!   

[ShiningInLuz]

Thank you so very much, for that information, it's very kind of you, to check it out.
 they have added hinges, which is a very good idea.
So it is only rain water that would go from these drains and run down that stream like canal and into the sea. I put a photo of a grated hole and near the Paraiso that runs down this gulley to the sea. It would have a large outlet pipe I should think? or go straight into the gulley/stream?









http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/swanray.htm

I get the general area where this is.  There is a complex of around a dozen rental homes owned by a Dutch lady on the seafront just a few metres east of the Paraíso.  Very pretty location, very lucrative, and it is up for sale at €1.6M, though as the lady is now quite old, I am sure she is open to offers.

There is a stream, than when it rains, comes down the valley and that looks like what most of your pics are about.  Either the stream itself or the concrete channel used as a conduit for the stream.

Is this a likely place re Madeleine McCann?  I would suggest this is a definite no.  The complex is 'far' away from 5A (nothing is far away from anywhere in Luz, but trekking a body from 5A to here does not fly). 

The stream empties onto the beach.  It does not go into sewers or sea, it empties onto the beach.  Then it makes a puddle in the sand.  Sometimes the puddle is large enough to drain into the sea, but mainly it drains into the sand.

Not recommended for body concealment of any kind.

[ShiningInLuz]

This is a serious suggestion so no need for a dose of random eraser.
Why don't our two foreign correspondents go to the Municipal Offices hand over a few escudos euros and buy copies of the "as built" drawings for the underground services in PdL?
That way we will have the full SP with no guessing.

Happy to do so if it worked that way in Portugal and if it told us anything.

Problem 1. Like everyone else who is not in the police, I am not allowed to investigate a crime.  Discussion is fine, investigation is illegal.

Problem 2. A map of the services in Luz will show us the services in Luz.  A map of the services in Luz in 2007, should one exist, would show us the services in Luz in 2007.  Jolly useful.  It would tell us how many hundreds on manhole covers need to be lifted, and how many thousands of metres of pipes need to be examined.

We need manhole-cover lifters in abundance.  We need pipe-examiners by the dozens.  Surely this is a job for SY as its budget knows no limits?

[Brietta]

Happy to do so if it worked that way in Portugal and if it told us anything.

Problem 1. Like everyone else who is not in the police, I am not allowed to investigate a crime.  Discussion is fine, investigation is illegal.

Problem 2. A map of the services in Luz will show us the services in Luz.  A map of the services in Luz in 2007, should one exist, would show us the services in Luz in 2007.  Jolly useful.  It would tell us how many hundreds on manhole covers need to be lifted, and how many thousands of metres of pipes need to be examined.

We need manhole-cover lifters in abundance.  We need pipe-examiners by the dozens.  Surely this is a job for SY as its budget knows no limits?

Just checked the webcam and it looks as if you have a glorious day for it ... have fun!

[Alice Purjorick]

Happy to do so if it worked that way in Portugal and if it told us anything.

Problem 1. Like everyone else who is not in the police, I am not allowed to investigate a crime.  Discussion is fine, investigation is illegal.

Problem 2. A map of the services in Luz will show us the services in Luz.  A map of the services in Luz in 2007, should one exist, would show us the services in Luz in 2007.  Jolly useful.  It would tell us how many hundreds on manhole covers need to be lifted, and how many thousands of metres of pipes need to be examined.

We need manhole-cover lifters in abundance.  We need pipe-examiners by the dozens.  Surely this is a job for SY as its budget knows no limits?

Well over here the public have access to such records. Most drawings will record changes made and when they were made. You are not investigating a crime just wanting access to municipal records.
The drawings will show all manholes with coordinates, the invert level of the drain the cover level and the pipe diameter at the manholes. From that you can work out which ones are worth looking at. Simples.

[Brietta]

Well over here the public have access to such records. Most drawings will record changes made and when they were made. You are not investigating a crime just wanting access to municipal records.
The drawings will show all manholes with coordinates, the invert level of the drain the cover level and the pipe diameter at the manholes. From that you can work out which ones are worth looking at. Simples.

I'm not sure that the ease of access we enjoy is necessarily what happens in other countries; for example I was surprised that SY were unable to access the names of property owners as part of their investigation.

[Alice Purjorick]

I'm not sure that the ease of assess we enjoy is necessarily what happens in other countries; for example I was surprised that SY were unable to access the names of property owners as part of their investigation.

You may well be right, however what I have been getting around to saying politely which didn't work, is simply this (impolitely).
If you don't know what you are looking at you are bleedin' clueless with respect to implications. A cover in a road may lead to a sewer it may not, it may lead to a telecoms duct or merely be a rodding eye for a pipeline. If, in the absence of a drawing that tells you the full SP on what it is, you haven't lifted the cover and had a bleedin' good look you are merely guessing like a lot of stuff on here.

[Miss Taken Identity]

I'm not sure that the ease of assess we enjoy is necessarily what happens in other countries; for example I was surprised that SY were unable to access the names of property owners as part of their investigation.

SY are not 'investigating'. They are a foreign police service they have no rights to'investigate' the lives or whereabouts of private citizens.

[Benice]

SY are not 'investigating'. They are a foreign police service they have no rights to'investigate' the lives or whereabouts of private citizens.

If SY's presence in PdL is not part of the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance - then what is it part of?

[Anna]

I get the general area where this is.  There is a complex of around a dozen rental homes owned by a Dutch lady on the seafront just a few metres east of the Paraíso.  Very pretty location, very lucrative, and it is up for sale at €1.6M, though as the lady is now quite old, I am sure she is open to offers.

There is a stream, than when it rains, comes down the valley and that looks like what most of your pics are about.  Either the stream itself or the concrete channel used as a conduit for the stream.

Is this a likely place re Madeleine McCann?  I would suggest this is a definite no.  The complex is 'far' away from 5A (nothing is far away from anywhere in Luz, but trekking a body from 5A to here does not fly). 

The stream empties onto the beach.  It does not go into sewers or sea, it empties onto the beach.  Then it makes a puddle in the sand.  Sometimes the puddle is large enough to drain into the sea, but mainly it drains into the sand.

Not recommended for body concealment of any kind.

Thank you, Shining

[ShiningInLuz]

You may well be right, however what I have been getting around to saying politely which didn't work, is simply this (impolitely).
If you don't know what you are looking at you are bleedin' clueless with respect to implications. A cover in a road may lead to a sewer it may not, it may lead to a telecoms duct or merely be a rodding eye for a pipeline. If, in the absence of a drawing that tells you the full SP on what it is, you haven't lifted the cover and had a bleedin' good look you are merely guessing like a lot of stuff on here.

Agreed.

I can tell by the cover on the ground whether it is rainwater (aka agua or pluvias), whether it is a sewer (aka esgotas) or whether it is a telecoms manhole (labelled with the name of the telecoms company e.g. CTT).  Telecoms holes are normally roughly half the size of the other two.  Sewers don't need to be large, 'cos Luz is not large. 

The biggest pipes seem to be storm drainage.  For 9 or 10 months of the year it is bone-dry here with zero rainfall.  For a month or two it throws it down like we live with tropical monsoons.

The 2007 works were 90cm wide, which suggests a pipe size of around 75cm, which in English is 30 inches or 2.5 feet.  Enough to get a Maddie-sized child down with room to spare.

I saw works in Gaivota (west of Luz) in 2012, where the storm drains being put in looked around 1.5m diameter.  That's enough to stuff a large adult into the pipe.

The problem with the manhole covers in Luz is this.  I would guestimate that every 25 to 30m you get a pair of covers, one for rainwater, one for sewage, normally side by side.  If I had to guestimate how many such covers there are in Luz, I would put it at high hundreds to several thousand.

Whatever the number is, if I go around pulling all the covers up, I am in danger of 2 things.  1) Getting charged with investigating a crime.  2) Getting run over by traffic.  Plus, I have no capability to examine the pipes, only the manholes.

Over to Scotland Yard!

[Anna]

Agreed.

I can tell by the cover on the ground whether it is rainwater (aka agua or pluvias), whether it is a sewer (aka esgotas) or whether it is a telecoms manhole (labelled with the name of the telecoms company e.g. CTT).  Telecoms holes are normally roughly half the size of the other two.  Sewers don't need to be large, 'cos Luz is not large. 

The biggest pipes seem to be storm drainage.  For 9 or 10 months of the year it is bone-dry here with zero rainfall.  For a month or two it throws it down like we live with tropical monsoons.

The 2007 works were 90cm wide, which suggests a pipe size of around 75cm, which in English is 30 inches or 2.5 feet.  Enough to get a Maddie-sized child down with room to spare.

I saw works in Gaivota (west of Luz) in 2012, where the storm drains being put in looked around 1.5m diameter.  That's enough to stuff a large adult into the pipe.

The problem with the manhole covers in Luz is this.  I would guestimate that every 25 to 30m you get a pair of covers, one for rainwater, one for sewage, normally side by side.  If I had to guestimate how many such covers there are in Luz, I would put it at high hundreds to several thousand.

Whatever the number is, if I go around pulling all the covers up, I am in danger of 2 things.  1) Getting charged with investigating a crime.  2) Getting run over by traffic.  Plus, I have no capability to examine the pipes, only the manholes.

Over to Scotland Yard!

 
 I wonder if SC checked these pipes that were near 5A and open on 3rd may. I expect they did , as I recall they were using fibre optic cameras on pipes in that area.

[slartibartfast]

 I wonder if SC checked these pipes that were near 5A and open on 3rd may. I expect they did , as I recall they were using fibre optic cameras on pipes in that area.

The investigation was directed elsewhere to start with.