Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?

[Anna]

I'm fairly sure that square cut channel is the outlet just to the west of the Bull/Fortaleza.  That's the bright green dot on the left of my graphic. 

As you can see, there is a small beach at that location.  As it happens, 19 times out of 20 the storm drain empties onto the beach, not into the sea.  It is only at extreme high tides that the little beach vanishes under water.  (Most high tides leave a little bit of the little beach exposed.)  This is not a strong contender for body disposal.

The green dot in the middle is the outlet to the south of the Fortaleza.  It empties onto 20 to 30 metres of rocks, so it is definitely no good for body disposal.

The green dot to the east is around where I've read there is another outlet, but it is on a cliff so I'm guessing at precise position.  I am far from certain so please don't quote me, but I believe it empties onto rocks at the bottom of the cliff.  Whether is does or not, it would require unusual tide and wind conditions to wash away from the main beach.

Anna posted a photo earlier of a channel/stream on the west end of the promenade.  That is connected to rainwater disposal also, but as I pointed out earlier, it normally empties into a large depression in the beach, forming a large pond.  Sometimes the sea does connect to the pond, but I can't see remains floating over the depression, into the sea, and then away from the beach.

In summary, I don't see the drains as a 'good' solution (apologies) for Madeleine getting into one herself by accident.

Thanks Shining.

[misty]

Random question - not sure where it belongs:-
Was the lift shaft checked?

[VIXTE]

In my opinion Madeleine going out on her own would be impossible if we consider the window being left open.

And if Madeleine war removed from the 5A by someone else then drains would be one of the option of a potential perpetrator to hide her body in case if she was dead.

But to conclude this we have to TRUE three options:
1. Madeleine was removed by someone else
2. Madeleine was dead
3. The person has chosen to hide her body inside the drainage system.

Mathematical probability of all these IFs and TRUEs would be quite low.

Another thing is that Praia da Luz did not  have the drainage system installed all over the village. A big percentage of properties in PDL have old fashioned holes in the ground under the houses which from time to time gets treated with chemicals to get rid of the smell.

I remember I investigated this myself back in 2008 and I found if very interesting. These private waste systems would be impossible to search! So, if there was a body and the body was put into one of these holes under the houses in PDL then it will never be found.

[Brietta]

In my opinion Madeleine going out on her own would be impossible if we consider the window being left open.

And if Madeleine war removed from the 5A by someone else then drains would be one of the option of a potential perpetrator to hide her body in case if she was dead.

But to conclude this we have to TRUE three options:
1. Madeleine was removed by someone else
2. Madeleine was dead
3. The person has chosen to hide her body inside the drainage system.

Mathematical probability of all these IFs and TRUEs would be quite low.

Another thing is that Praia da Luz did not  have the drainage system installed all over the village. A big percentage of properties in PDL have old fashioned holes in the ground under the houses which from time to time gets treated with chemicals to get rid of the smell.

I remember I investigated this myself back in 2008 and I found if very interesting. These private waste systems would be impossible to search! So, if there was a body and the body was put into one of these holes under the houses in PDL then it will never be found.

If the perpetrator was local it would have been an obvious choice for concealment and disposal.

[VIXTE]

If the perpetrator was local it would have been an obvious choice for concealment and disposal.

But then he-she would need to be home alone or to have 2 properties and one being empty at the time and and same time having the old fashioned sewage system.

Then again I remember from some other tourist areas that these holes get cleaned from time to time. Although I remember seeing this on my grandmother's farm where she was born and it was never cleaned.


EDIT: If you google search 'septic tank' and Praia da Luz you can see that almost all villas advertised in PDL have septic tanks

[Brietta]

Random question - not sure where it belongs:-
Was the lift shaft checked?

I have never seen it mentioned that the lift shaft was searched, Misty.

I have often thought about what the void under the apartment was like, was it solid rock or just space - perhaps even storage. 
Like many houses in PDL including Casa Liliana my house is built on a slope with the front entrance at street level and a drop at the back ... I can stand at full height in the space underneath.  Like the Murats I have blocked the outer door and access is through a hidden trap in the house.
The height of the balcony at 5A suggests a void and the lift mechanism had to be somewhere.

Children and adults do manage to fall down lift shafts, often the fall is fatal, which is fortunately not the case for this eighteen month old, who went up and down several times as the lift was in use throughout his ordeal ...

A Melbourne toddler fell down a lift shaft and had to cling to the side of the lift for 15 minutes..
https://www.facebook.com/9News/posts/338898496130021

[Brietta]

But then he-she would need to be home alone or to have 2 properties and one being empty at the time and and same time having the old fashioned sewage system.

Then again I remember from some other tourist areas that these holes get cleaned from time to time. Although I remember seeing this on my grandmother's farm where she was born and it was never cleaned.


EDIT: If you google search 'septic tank' and Praia da Luz you can see that almost all villas advertised in PDL have septic tanks

Just as there are abandoned wells around PDL ... I imagine there may well be abandoned and forgotten septic tanks too? 
Perhaps not, my father described the hygiene rules for dry toilets in use in the farms where he worked as a boy ... I was incredulous ... but maybe the countryside dwellers in Portugal were like the countryside dwellers in Scotland and made use of these until septic tanks became mandatory?

There are just so many places where someone with the will and the time could have hidden her.

[misty]

I have never seen it mentioned that the lift shaft was searched, Misty.

I have often thought about what the void under the apartment was like, was it solid rock or just space - perhaps even storage. 
Like many houses in PDL including Casa Liliana my house is built on a slope with the front entrance at street level and a drop at the back ... I can stand at full height in the space underneath.  Like the Murats I have blocked the outer door and access is through a hidden trap in the house.
The height of the balcony at 5A suggests a void and the lift mechanism had to be somewhere.

Children and adults do manage to fall down lift shafts, often the fall is fatal, which is fortunately not the case for this eighteen month old, who went up and down several times as the lift was in use throughout his ordeal ...

A Melbourne toddler fell down a lift shaft and had to cling to the side of the lift for 15 minutes..
https://www.facebook.com/9News/posts/338898496130021

Thanks for that, Brietta, & the link to that near-disaster story.
It always struck me as odd that the lifts, void under the building and roof areas were never mentioned in relation to the searches. Places where perhaps Eddie & Keela should have been allowed to have a little nose around.

[ShiningInLuz]

In my opinion Madeleine going out on her own would be impossible if we consider the window being left open.

And if Madeleine was removed from the 5A by someone else then drains would be one of the option of a potential perpetrator to hide her body in case if she was dead.

But to conclude this we have to TRUE three options:
1. Madeleine was removed by someone else
2. Madeleine was dead
3. The person has chosen to hide her body inside the drainage system.

Mathematical probability of all these IFs and TRUEs would be quite low.

Another thing is that Praia da Luz did not  have the drainage system installed all over the village. A big percentage of properties in PDL have old fashioned holes in the ground under the houses which from time to time gets treated with chemicals to get rid of the smell.

I remember I investigated this myself back in 2008 and I found if very interesting. These private waste systems would be impossible to search! So, if there was a body and the body was put into one of these holes under the houses in PDL then it will never be found.

I'm curious as to why you assume point 1 above.

I'm more curious as to how you conclude that a large percentage of houses in Luz have cess pits?  The vast bulk of Luz was (or appears to have been) built within the last 30 years, and that in keeping with what I know of its development.  And how does one look at a house and know whether it has a cess pit or modern drains?

I have not yet (3 years on) seen a single cess pit being drained.

[pegasus]

Random question - not sure where it belongs:-
Was the lift shaft checked?

There appears to be a lift engine room on the roof.

[Brietta]

There appears to be a lift engine room on the roof.

Good to see you back, pegasus.

There must have been lift mechanisms somewhere and the roof would be a likely spot ... I never saw any reports that the lift shafts of the buildings had been checked.

[pegasus]

Good to see you back, pegasus.

There must have been lift mechanisms somewhere and the roof would be a likely spot ... I never saw any reports that the lift shafts of the buildings had been checked.

A good person to ask might be one of our members who has been up those stairs. 1st floor = G H I J, 2nd floor = K L M N, 3rd floor = O P Q R penthouses (bedrooms), 4th floor = O P Q R penthouses (main level). A question for them, do the stairs go up another floor beyond that, to the lift room? Re the sad case of the stormdrain in New Zealand, I wonder if police ever asked that UK tourist who of that evening saw a drain with cover missing, to show them on a map exactly where (it was near supermarket IIRC?).

[sadie]

A good person to ask might be one of our members who has been up those stairs. 1st floor = G H I J, 2nd floor = K L M N, 3rd floor = O P Q R penthouses (bedrooms), 4th floor = O P Q R penthouses (main level). A question for them, do the stairs go up another floor beyond that, to the lift room? Re the sad case of the stormdrain in New Zealand, I wonder if police ever asked that UK tourist who of that evening saw a drain with cover missing, to show them on a map exactly where (it was near supermarket IIRC?).

The lift shaft?

A good idea, but I dont think so.

The scent of a cadavar would have soon alerted Eddie.... and how would she have got there?

[Eleanor]

I'm curious as to why you assume point 1 above.

I'm more curious as to how you conclude that a large percentage of houses in Luz have cess pits?  The vast bulk of Luz was (or appears to have been) built within the last 30 years, and that in keeping with what I know of its development.  And how does one look at a house and know whether it has a cess pit or modern drains?

I have not yet (3 years on) seen a single cess pit being drained.

Some don't need draining.  Although EU Law says that the main tank should be drained every four years, but this is recent law, which not a lot of people actually take any notice of.
Mine gets done when I feel like it, which is about every six years.

[Brietta]

Some don't need draining.  Although EU Law says that the main tank should be drained every four years, but this is recent law, which not a lot of people actually take any notice of.
Mine gets done when I feel like it, which is about every six years.

Police in Australia have drained a septic tank in their search for William Tyrell.  I imagine if a child's body had been put in one it would take draining to enable it to be located.