Did Madeleine McCann meet the same fate as Aisling Symes?

[Alfie]

I was considering drains more so than trenches.  You seem to be talking more of a deliberate burial.

no, I'm questioning the likelihood of a child burying itself in a manmade hole.  Apparently it happens all the time, though I've yet to read of one documented case.

[Alfie]

There is no sign that PJ or SY ever followed up on this ... (Processos p4014)

What did the police do on receipt of this information?

[Robittybob1]

no, I'm questioning the likelihood of a child burying itself in a manmade hole.  Apparently it happens all the time, though I've yet to read of one documented case.

Tunnels built in sandhills used to concern my mum,  There were cases like that.

[pegasus]

The difficulty is we don't know exactly when RM saw this uncovered manhole. It does not appear from his statement that he was involved in the searching overnight.

At older ages participation in nighttime search while certainly not impossible is low probability Misty. So I would rule out it being seen during the search. Therefore IMO the open manhole was seen before the search. It would be interesting to know what time.

[Robittybob1]

At older ages participation in nighttime search while certainly not impossible is low probability Misty. So I would rule out it being seen during the search. Therefore IMO the open manhole was seen before the search. It would be interesting to know what time.

Maybe we could use Facebook to find RM and ask him.

[Alice Purjorick]

It's clear that he saw the manhole open (cover removed) on the 3rd and then saw it closed (cover replaced) on the 4th. He describes the open manhole in a night-time context (easy to not see it in the dark despite the street-lights) therefore IMO he probably saw it open in the dark on evening of the 3rd.

How deep was this open manhole ?

[Robittybob1]

How deep was this open manhole ?

Stormwater and sewerage pipes could be 3-4 meters deep,  It would be dependent on the terrain.
In NZ a child was thought to be abducted but later found she had fallen into the stormwater drain after walking across a manhole cover.  The water flowing had carried the body 20 meters along the drain so was out of sight from searchers looking straight down the manhole.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/5150928/Details-of-toddlers-death-too-much-for-parents

[pegasus]

Maybe we could use Facebook to find RM and ask him.

Facebook wouldn't be a good method Robbity - that's more for the young and middle aged.

But here is an important principle - and I believe Misty agrees with me on this.
The principle is to fully respect witnesses' privacy, to not publish their contact details, and to not contact them.

[Robittybob1]

Facebook wouldn't be a good method Robbity - that's more for the young and middle aged.

But here is an important principle - and I believe Misty agrees with me on this.
The principle is to fully respect witnesses' privacy, to not publish their contact details, and to not contact them.

At this late stage in the investigation I would have no hesitation to do whatever I felt like doing.  It up to the other person whether they respond to a friend request.  It has to be consensual in every way.  Maybe RM feels no one has listened to him.  Who would have put the manhole cover back on?

[Alice Purjorick]

Stormwater and sewerage pipes could be 3-4 meters deep,  It would be dependent on the terrain.
In NZ a child was thought to be abducted but later found she had fallen into the stormwater drain after walking across a manhole cover.  The water flowing had carried the body 20 meters along the drain so was out of sight from searchers looking straight down the manhole.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/5150928/Details-of-toddlers-death-too-much-for-parents

They could have even more cover than 4000mm but the ones under discussion are in PdL not the Land of The Long White Cloud.
So do we know the depth and diameter of the drain that had the manhole with the cover removed ?
At this stage I don't think we need to get too hung up on the content of WPCF Manual of Practice #9 ..

[pegasus]

At this late stage in the investigation I would have no hesitation to do whatever I felt like doing.  It up to the other person whether they respond to a friend request.  It has to be consensual in every way.  Maybe RM feels no one has listened to him.  Who would have put the manhole cover back on?

I wouldn't reveal the address and phonenumber of this or any other witness Robbity even if I had them.

There are 2 possible periods the witness saw manhole not covered
1. If witness saw open manhole before the 4pm home period, presumably the cover and frame would have been fixed back in place by a workman by 5pm, and would be of no interest.
2. If witness saw open manhole hours after the 4pm home period, for example after 6pm, that is after the workday when a workman might fix it back in place, so it might hypothetically remain open all night - which would obviously be of interest..

[pegasus]

R Dr Francisco Gentil Martins along its entire length has two drains running under the road surface, one is the rainwater drain, the other is the foulwater drain. So there are two lines of round metal inspection covers on the road surface..

[Robittybob1]

I wouldn't reveal the address and phonenumber of this or any other witness Robbity even if I had them.

There are 2 possible periods the witness saw manhole not covered
1. If witness saw open manhole before the 4pm home period, presumably the cover and frame would have been fixed back in place by a workman by 5pm, and would be of no interest.
2. If witness saw open manhole hours after the 4pm home period, for example after 6pm, that is after the workday when a workman might fix it back in place, so it might hypothetically remain open all night - which would obviously be of interest..

If I had the address I'd just contact them privately, I would not publish this without their permission.

[misty]

If I had the address I'd just contact them privately, I would not publish this without their permission.

There is absolutely no need to contact them. SY have worked their way through all the statements on file & have undoubtedly spoken to RM about this manhole cover. It is important to note that no-one else mentioned this hazard existing during the searches or being present when holidaymakers & staff were walking in the vicinity earlier in the evening.

[pegasus]

There is absolutely no need to contact them. SY have worked their way through all the statements on file & have undoubtedly spoken to RM about this manhole cover. ... (snip)

Precisely Misty. Hopefully OG have already determined the exact inspection cover (easy by short visit with connected laptop and streetview), got PJ to check whether it is rainwater or foulwater and who replaced the cover and frame and at what time. If it was replaced before evening then it's irrelevant.