Is there any hard evidence whatsoever in the Madeleine McCann case?

[jassi]

What about the ability to photo-shop? None of the photos in the files have a time & date stamp on them.

Are you saying that forensic examination cannot detect when something has been photo-shopped?

[Brietta]

IMO the photo of the airer is hard evidence. If it was relevant, a court could examine that photo, the time it was taken, and the statement of the officer who took the photo, and conclude that the airer was on the balcony, with those clothes on it.
The only significance of the airer in that photo IMO is to prove that the alerted clothes were not on the airer that night (therefore they were inside the apartment).

I for one would appreciate reading what you say about a mistake you have found using the information we, the general public, have to hand.

From my very first viewing, I have always had issues with the Levy videos ... one of which is the lack of a time and date stamp.

I have no reason to suppose that the photographic evidence supplied by the photographer at the crime scene would not have followed the stringent procedures carried out at a later date as supervised by Chief Inspector Vitor MATOS of the PJ and described by M Harrison.


**snip

 3. How did the searches evolve?
Between the 31.07.2007 and 07.08.2007 the searches took place in Praia da Luz were under the command and supervision of the Chief Inspector Vitor MATOS of the PJ. He was personally present at the searches and at his request I accompanied him as an advisor. The searches evolved were multidisciplinary and involved the PJ, GNR, UK Police and the University of Aveiro. All the searches that occurred were documented in video by the PJ, including location, time and date stamps.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON-RIGATORY.htm

[Brietta]

So who do you think hide Madeleine under there?

Did I say anyone hid Madeleine under there?

The police spent  lot of time and energy looking for a missing child who they believed had wandered, in a search no doubt radiating from the centre as that is not only protocol but the sensible course of action.

Where is more central than Block 5?  There are no outbuildings to be searched ... but there may be a cellar.  We know from the evidence that the crawl space under Casa Liliana was searched.  There is no evidence that ...
(a)  block five has a deep cellar underneath
(b)  there is no evidence that if it has, that area was searched.

There are many instances of people and children falling into lift shafts (just Google it).

[Carana]

Did I say anyone hid Madeleine under there?

The police spent  lot of time and energy looking for a missing child who they believed had wandered, in a search no doubt radiating from the centre as that is not only protocol but the sensible course of action.

Where is more central than Block 5?  There are no outbuildings to be searched ... but there may be a cellar.  We know from the evidence that the crawl space under Casa Liliana was searched.  There is no evidence that ...
(a)  block five has a deep cellar underneath
(b)  there is no evidence that if it has, that area was searched.


There are many instances of people and children falling into lift shafts (just Google it).

The crawl space in CL wasn't actually searched, AFAIK, as the entrance to it had been blocked up for years and tiled over. However, the architect did send in the plans and the fact that the entrance was blocked was verified.

However, as we have both been trying to point out.... was any such verification done for Block 5 (or others nearby for that matter)?

Choosing to block up an entrance to a crawlspace in a private home may not equate to the same considerations in an apartment block.

Perhaps Alice has a view on this?

[Brietta]

The crawl space in CL wasn't actually searched, AFAIK, as the entrance to it had been blocked up for years and tiled over. However, the architect did send in the plans and the fact that the entrance was blocked was verified.

However, as we have both been trying to point out.... was any such verification done for Block 5 (or others nearby for that matter)?

Choosing to block up an entrance to a crawlspace in a private home may not equate to the same considerations in an apartment block.

Perhaps Alice has a view on this?

Possibly an irrelevance ... I have blocked the outside access to my cellar ... the entry I have retained from inside the house would be very difficult for someone who didn't know exactly where it is to find ... and unless one knew there was a void under the house no-one would be looking for it anyway.

It remains possible that there may be such a concealed entrance somewhere around the apartment in Praia da Luz.



I assumed that having located the entrance inside the villa, Carana, the police would have dropped down and physically inspected it.
I know that the architect had difficulty when he tried to pass on the information and the drawings.  If memory serves me well, part of which was as a result of language difficulties when using the phone, but that is for another thread to discuss.
We have no idea what and where the dogs checked when they inspected ... the mind boggles if they weren't put into the space under the villa.

[Carana]

Possibly an irrelevance ... I have blocked the outside access to my cellar ... the entry I have retained from inside the house would be very difficult for someone who didn't know exactly where it is to find ... and unless one knew there was a void under the house no-one would be looking for it anyway.

It remains possible that there may be such a concealed entrance somewhere around the apartment in Praia da Luz.



I assumed that having located the entrance inside the villa, Carana, the police would have dropped down and physically inspected it.
I know that the architect had difficulty when he tried to pass on the information and the drawings.  If memory serves me well, part of which was as a result of language difficulties when using the phone, but that is for another thread to discuss.
We have no idea what and where the dogs checked when they inspected ... the mind boggles if they weren't put into the space under the villa.

I thought I'd posted drawing and photos of that here... somewhere.

Back to topic, an issue isn't just what hard evidence exists (however that is defined), but what is missing. And that would seem to be twofold: a) what the forensic people didn't look for (or somehow lost) is something we'll probably never know and b) any significance or lack therof that could be attached to what they did find or didn't find where they did search that could have been equally significant.

[misty]

Are you saying that forensic examination cannot detect when something has been photo-shopped?

Imagine having to ask a court for forensic examination of hard police evidence.....

[misty]

I thought I'd posted drawing and photos of that here... somewhere.

Back to topic, an issue isn't just what hard evidence exists (however that is defined), but what is missing. And that would seem to be twofold: a) what the forensic people didn't look for (or somehow lost) is something we'll probably never know and b) any significance or lack therof that could be attached to what they did find or didn't find where they did search that could have been equally significant.

That is an opportunity to ask about the significance of the rotting meat found in 5J in relation to the abduction theories.
Who put the foodstuffs in the fridge & when?
Why was it put there?
The PJ reported 5J had been unoccupied for months. It took them a week to get an access key. But SOMEBODY had recently had access - the fact that the food was smelling indicated it was very actively decomposing, therefore relatively fresh.
Why wasn't 5J forensically examined?

[G-Unit]

That is an opportunity to ask about the significance of the rotting meat found in 5J in relation to the abduction theories.
Who put the foodstuffs in the fridge & when?
Why was it put there?
The PJ reported 5J had been unoccupied for months. It took them a week to get an access key. But SOMEBODY had recently had access - the fact that the food was smelling indicated it was very actively decomposing, therefore relatively fresh.
Why wasn't 5J forensically examined?

Why should it have been? None of the other apartments were, only G5A.

[Carana]

Why should it have been? None of the other apartments were, only G5A.

The PT sniffer dogs were interested in that apartment. The police eventually found that there was rotting food in it and that was accepted as a likely explanation as to the interest and that was the end of it. Wouldn't that situation have been worth further exploration? Who was in there? When did they leave? An innocent oversight or a rushed departure?

[Brietta]

Why should it have been? None of the other apartments were, only G5A.

Interesting.  A child is missing. 
Police dogs react to a supposedly empty apartment in the same apartment block from which she has disappeared. Nobody bothers to organise entry till some days later.


After entering the apartment, it was observed that the dour came from close to the fridge, which was open and contained some rotting meat and vegetables.
Annex B. Report on the Sniffer Dog Search and Rescue Team


I can just see why a civilian would think there was little significance ... I would have thought those organising a professional police force in the search for a missing child to take a different view and send in a forensics team.

[Anna]

OK lets try and define what hard evidence is.
It was my understanding that anything found and proved to be associated with the crime, but not witness statements, as they cannot always have the proof to substantiate them.

The dogs smelling rotten meat is only evidence that the dogs smelled rotten meat.

I agree that this should have been investigated further, since a cleaner would have cleaned the apartment after the departure of a guest, unless of course the owner made her own arrangements for cleaning……………..Anyway it should have been checked out, but was not.

Therefore in the instance of the rotten meat, there was no hard evidence of the crime which was being investigated.

If you disagree with this then please supply a site that proves otherwise.

[Eleanor]

OK lets try and define what hard evidence is.
It was my understanding that anything found and proved to be associated with the crime, but not witness statements, as they cannot always have the proof to substantiate them.

The dogs smelling rotten meat is only evidence that the dogs smelled rotten meat.

I agree that this should have been investigated further, since a cleaner would have cleaned the apartment after the departure of a guest, unless of course the owner made her own arrangements for cleaning……………..Anyway it should have been checked out, but was not.

Therefore in the instance of the rotten meat, there was no hard evidence of the crime which was being investigated.

If you disagree with this then please supply a site that proves otherwise.

It did cross my mind that someone might have been staying in the apartment without the knowledge of the owner.  Although I have no proof of this, other than rotten food in the fridge.

[Brietta]

It did cross my mind that someone might have been staying in the apartment without the knowledge of the owner.  Although I have no proof of this, other than rotten food in the fridge.

I think I've seen it mentioned that quite a lot of illicit sub-letting happens, making it difficult to tie down who was where at any given time.

@Anna ... don't have an opinion about the definition of 'hard' evidence ... quite content to leave it to your good judgement.

[Anna]

It did cross my mind that someone might have been staying in the apartment without the knowledge of the owner.  Although I have no proof of this, other than rotten food in the fridge.

Exactly, Eleanor.
I also had these suspicions as do some others.
However there is no proof of anything, connected to that apartment because it was not investigated(that we know of)and nothing was found that can be classed as hard evidence, relating to the crime  being discussed.