The Quality of Witnesses in the Case.

[misty]

Manager John Hill went to apartment 5A first before going to reception to call the police at 10:41.

So why did Helder apparently not make a single phone call before that time? How could he have known the GNR were busy elsewhere?

[Mr Moderator]

I stayed at the table in case Madeleine had wandered off and she might come looking round the restaurant. Err this is when it gets all a bit confusing because I’ve no idea how long I, I stayed there. I don’t, I don’t think it was that long and I know that at one point, again, this wasn’t in my original statement, Dave did come back to the table and say can, can you just go back to the apartment, but all this is very, very, very vague and I know when I left the table I went, I did go into err Kate and Gerry’s err apartment. (DW)

A lot of people who knew Madeleine appeared to believe she had wandered off which in itself makes a nonsense of claims to the contrary.

Why do posters who have no personal knowledge of the child and who have never been to Ocean Club in Praia da Luz claim the woke and wandered theory could never have happened when those close to the McCanns thought it could?

[pathfinder73]

A lot of people who knew Madeleine appeared to believe she had wandered off which in itself makes a nonsense of claims to the contrary.

Why do posters who have no personal knowledge of the child and who have never been to Ocean Club in Praia da Luz claim the woke and wandered theory could never have happened when those close to the McCanns thought it could?

It could have happened but she didn't conveniently fall into a deep sleep in Smithman's arms.

[G-Unit]

OK. So Helder was sitting at the reception, the nannies were running around frantically, Matt had been sent to reception to call the police, John Hill was told at 10.28 about the situation by Lindsay the nanny,  Vitor dos Santos had been called by Helder & told about the situation/GNR were busy at Odiaxere..........but the first phone call to the police ACCORDING TO THE TELEPHONE RECORDS was made at 2241.
IMO the telephone records regarding calls to the GNR from OC were doctored or none of the rest makes any sense.

That could be a possibility because the GNR seem to have been in no hurry according to Helder. Later the GNR possibly realised that they'd made a mistake not responding immediately. How they would doctor the phone record though I don't know.

Another possibility is that Helder made the mistake by waiting to see if the child was found, and he was trying to cover his back when he made his statement. He makes no mention of Matt coming to reception either; according to Fiona Payne she sent him to call the police.

According to Vitor, Helder said John Hill was agitated. but according to John Hill and others he wasn't even there when Helder phoned Vitor between 10pm and 10.15pm. Mind, Vitor said he arrived at the resort 10 or 15 minutes after the phone call from Helder and the GNR were there. so if he arrived at 10.30pm he not only arrived at the same time or just before John Hill, he also arrived before the GNR had even been telephoned.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR-SANTOS.htm

All that is before I even start on Amy Tierney who says she saw the open window and shutters which had been closed by Gerald before she had finished telephoning Lyndsay at 10.20pm from the night creche.

[Anna]

Who said that Amy phoned from the crèche?

 I believe that Amy went to 5A immediately after the news from the parent to check if Maddie was indeed missing and done a search in the apartment
Before calling Lyndsay to inform her that Maddie was indeed missing. Then Lyndsay phoned Emma whose statement says it was around 22.17
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240
hhttp://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
So I think that Jacqueline Williams time and explanation is more reasonable:-
That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the "dinner time period" together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy, when a female individual arrived, whose name she does not know, just that she was the mother of a child there (belonging to Toddlers 2), being a guest who was staying at the resort and who left at the end of the week, who told her that a girl called "Maddie" has disappeared, and that the girl's parents needed help in looking for her.
When questioned she said that the crêche also offered a free service permitting parents to leave their children in the care of the crêche workers during dinner between 19.15 and 23.00, seeing as the abovementioned situation occurred during this time and that she was on duty for that service on that night.


Whilst this was happening, her colleague tried to find out and confirmed that a child by the name of Madeleine McCann had disappeared and that they were about to begin the "missing child procedure".
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240

[G-Unit]

A lot of people who knew Madeleine appeared to believe she had wandered off which in itself makes a nonsense of claims to the contrary.

Why do posters who have no personal knowledge of the child and who have never been to Ocean Club in Praia da Luz claim the woke and wandered theory could never have happened when those close to the McCanns thought it could?

Because the parents said so. Emphatically. Many times. David Payne was sure also because the child gate and the garden gate were closed (according to Kate when she found Madeleine gone).
 

[Mr Gray]

A lot of people who knew Madeleine appeared to believe she had wandered off which in itself makes a nonsense of claims to the contrary.

Why do posters who have no personal knowledge of the child and who have never been to Ocean Club in Praia da Luz claim the woke and wandered theory could never have happened when those close to the McCanns thought it could?

If Maddie woke and wandered who opened the shutters

[faithlilly]

Beg you're pardon, you're right of course.  It was 10.03pm.  It is Faithlilly who keeps banging on about 10.13pm, not Gerry.

10.03 + 10 minutes = ?

[Alfred R Jones]

10.03 + 10 minutes = ?

And you still believe (despite the wealth of  other witness testimony that I have posted here today) that Kate left the table for 10 minutes prior to raising the alarm at 10.13pm, and despite the fact that no one else seems to agree with you?  You're stubbornly steadfast, I grant you!

[faithlilly]

And you still believe (despite the wealth of  other witness testimony that I have posted here today) that Kate left the table for 10 minutes prior to raising the alarm at 10.13pm, and despite the fact that no one else seems to agree with you?  You're stubbornly steadfast, I grant you!

You have posted no testimony, others have. The problem with everything posted is that the times claimed are prefixed by 'about' or 'around'.

BTW Alfie why does it matter so much to you what I think ?

[G-Unit]

Who said that Amy phoned from the crèche?

 I believe that Amy went to 5A immediately after the news from the parent to check if Maddie was indeed missing and done a search in the apartment
Before calling Lyndsay to inform her that Maddie was indeed missing. Then Lyndsay phoned Emma whose statement says it was around 22.17
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240
hhttp://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
So I think that Jacqueline Williams time and explanation is more reasonable:-
That on 3rd May at about 22.05 she was working at the Mini Club, at the "dinner time period" together with colleagues Charlotte and Amy, when a female individual arrived, whose name she does not know, just that she was the mother of a child there (belonging to Toddlers 2), being a guest who was staying at the resort and who left at the end of the week, who told her that a girl called "Maddie" has disappeared, and that the girl's parents needed help in looking for her.
When questioned she said that the crêche also offered a free service permitting parents to leave their children in the care of the crêche workers during dinner between 19.15 and 23.00, seeing as the abovementioned situation occurred during this time and that she was on duty for that service on that night.


Whilst this was happening, her colleague tried to find out and confirmed that a child by the name of Madeleine McCann had disappeared and that they were about to begin the "missing child procedure".
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JACQUELINE_WILLIAMS.htm
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post27240.html#p27240

Jacqueline's colleague  was Amy. How did she try to find out then? she has not said, but Charlotte Pennington said Amy phoned Lyndsay and Lyndsay confirmed it - at 10.20pm. Charlotte didn't leave the night creche according to Jacqueline, so the call must have been from there. Perhaps Amy ran straight to the McCann's apartment before making the call? She doesn't say in which order she did things, but she does say both parents and a friend were there when she was at the apartment. According to Gerry the first thing he did was close the shutters when he ran back to the apartment with Kate. The only friend who entered the apartment was Fiona, who didn't see the open shutters. None of them mention Amy coming and searching the apartment.

[sadie]

A lot of people who knew Madeleine appeared to believe she had wandered off which in itself makes a nonsense of claims to the contrary.

Why do posters who have no personal knowledge of the child and who have never been to Ocean Club in Praia da Luz claim the woke and wandered theory could never have happened when those close to the McCanns thought it could?

A lot of placating words would have been said to Kate and Gerry.  Better to pretend to them that Madeleine had probabaly waken and wandered than have them face tghe raw possibility that Madeleine had been taken IMO

Just which people who knew Madeleine appeared to believe she had wandered off, Mr Mod ?

[Alfred R Jones]

You have posted no testimony, others have. The problem with everything posted is that the times claimed are prefixed by 'about' or 'around'.

BTW Alfie why does it matter so much to you what I think ?

Erm...I have posted a load of testimony this afternoon on this thread, all of which strongly suggests the alarm was raised considerably earlier than 10.13pm.

It matters to me not a jot what you think, I know full well that no amount of evidence or careful, logical reasoning with you will alter your p.o.v. one millimetre.  I do however find it interesting that you and PF steadfastly refuse to acknowledge each other's very differing thoughts on this matter, preferring instead to argue about it via a third person.  What are you two afraid of? 

[faithlilly]

Erm...I have posted a load of testimony this afternoon on this thread, all of which strongly suggests the alarm was raised considerably earlier than 10.13pm.

It matters to me not a jot what you think, I know full well that no amount of evidence or careful, logical reasoning with you will alter your p.o.v. one millimetre.  I do however find it interesting that you and PF steadfastly refuse to acknowledge each other's very differing thoughts on this matter, preferring instead to argue about it via a third person.  What are you two afraid of?

You have posted nothing but the estimated guesses of very busy staff whose approximation differ not only between each other but also the tapas friends. This of course brings us not one jot closer to the truth.

And TBH I'm perversely pleased that you acknowledge that you won't change mu PoV because now with any luck you'll give up trying and I won't have to put up with you stalking me all over the forum.

[sadie]

You have posted nothing but the estimated guesses of very busy staff whose approximation differ not only between each other but also the tapas friends. This of course brings us not one jot closer to the truth.

And TBH I'm perversely pleased that you acknowledge that you won't change mu PoV because now with any luck you'll give up trying and I won't have to put up with you stalking me all over the forum.

Please dont talk about stalking Faith.

Early on in this forum you and a couple or so others stalked me beyond all reason