Author Topic: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?  (Read 180843 times)

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OxfordBloo

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #705 on: May 10, 2015, 06:44:36 AM »
Links?

No, it goes the other way. I am uncertain how reliable the dogs are. If you maintain they are error free, please provide the evidence. Until proved error free they must be assumed to be error prone. That is hiw science works.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #706 on: May 10, 2015, 07:23:31 AM »
No, it goes the other way. I am uncertain how reliable the dogs are. If you maintain they are error free, please provide the evidence. Until proved error free they must be assumed to be error prone. That is hiw science works.

I'll tell you the problem I'm having with your opinions.

Firstly, 'science' is your mantra, but you seem unaware of the difficulties arising when attempting 'scientific' studies of people and animals as opposed to studying 'things'. That's why I want links to the studies you are quoting.

Secondly, you are assuming that a few studies done on a few handlers and dogs can be applied to all handlers and dogs. That would depend on sample sizes and methodology being adequate. Another reason why I would like to see the studies.

Thirdly, even if the data is perfectly fine, does  it definitely apply to Eddie and Keela in particular, and to these alerts in particular? None of us know, so we know nothing more at the end of it all except that some dogs in some situations gave false alerts.

Please note that I have never said that these types of dogs are error-free, so I have no need to support that view. You say they are, and you refer to studies but refuse completely to provide links. I can only assume you cannot.
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Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #707 on: May 10, 2015, 07:26:20 AM »
evidence of alien abduction

By sheer coincidence, I was talking to my better half earlier, and the conversation went basically "at least no-one has mentioned alien abduction".

Life is strange.
What's up, old man?

OxfordBloo

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #708 on: May 10, 2015, 07:47:50 AM »
I'll tell you the problem I'm having with your opinions.

Firstly, 'science' is your mantra, but you seem unaware of the difficulties arising when attempting 'scientific' studies of people and animals as opposed to studying 'things'. That's why I want links to the studies you are quoting.

Secondly, you are assuming that a few studies done on a few handlers and dogs can be applied to all handlers and dogs. That would depend on sample sizes and methodology being adequate. Another reason why I would like to see the studies.

Thirdly, even if the data is perfectly fine, does  it definitely apply to Eddie and Keela in particular, and to these alerts in particular? None of us know, so we know nothing more at the end of it all except that some dogs in some situations gave false alerts.

Please note that I have never said that these types of dogs are error-free, so I have no need to support that view. You say they are, and you refer to studies but refuse completely to provide links. I can only assume you cannot.


You misunderstand how science works at its most basic. It is founded on Socratic Ignorance. The initial position for any scientific investigation is 'I do not know anything'. Then I or someone else says 'maybe so and so is the case'. That thesis having been made, information is sought to support that view. Now se know from the case of the Black Swan that induction (continued production of merely supportive information) is a common sense way of supporting truth, but we know from logic that this is ineffective (the sun will rise tomorrow because it has always risen, all swans that have been observed are white, therefore all swans are white). So we then move towards what is known as the principle of falsification which introduces deduction in addition to induction. By this we mean that we look at the thesis and consider what fact would destroy the thesis and then seek to falsify the thesis in every way possible to human reason and experimentation. Ideas that pass this test become scientific fact. This is as applicable to human sciences as to physical s Jencks, the difference only being in methods of experimentation, the underlying rationale being the same for both.

So the question is "what do we know about dog alerts to different odours" and we (I) start from the position that we know nothing about this. You (or other investigators) assert that there is a relationship between alerts and odours present, so start out finding supportive evidence (induction) of which there is plenty. But to prove any reliability, the thesis needs to survive falsification (introducing deduction). This requires asserters to defend their thesis against sceptics who will say "what level of certainty if any", "what about cueing", "how do we explain false positives and false negatives", and so on.

So, I am a sceptic- I do not know how effective scent dogs are because I have learned as a scientist to dismiss common sense and actually derive facts from the world by scientific method. As such I have nothing to prove.

So, you (or other asserters) bear the burden of proof (as in law).

If you believe dogs are 'x' effective, prove it.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 07:58:01 AM by OxfordBloo »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #709 on: May 10, 2015, 07:53:40 AM »
By sheer coincidence, I was talking to my better half earlier, and the conversation went basically "at least no-one has mentioned alien abduction".

Life is strange.

it has been mentioned several times....Hall of video fame is a big supporter but has not applied it to the Maddie case

Offline G-Unit

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #710 on: May 10, 2015, 08:55:08 AM »

 So we then move towards what is known as the principle of falsification which introduces deduction in addition to induction. By this we mean that we look at the thesis and consider what fact would destroy the thesis and then seek to falsify the thesis in every way possible to human reason and experimentation. Ideas that pass this test become scientific fact. This is as applicable to human sciences as to physical s Jencks, the difference only being in methods of experimentation, the underlying rationale being the same for both.

It is true that social 'scientists' have attempted to study people using 'scientific' methods. It's not true to say this has been successful, or that it ever can be.
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OxfordBloo

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #711 on: May 10, 2015, 09:16:46 AM »
It is true that social 'scientists' have attempted to study people using 'scientific' methods. It's not true to say this has been successful, or that it ever can be.

That may be your view (and that of Thatcher) but psychologists, sociologists, economists, psephologists, anthropologists, geographers, historians and many other academics give the lie to this.

But that aside you have totally missed what I have said. The dogs are either accurate or inaccurate. We can decide that either by folk belief (common sense) or scientific processes. One is guesswork, the other leads to knowledge.

Knowledge is belief justified by some means or another.

Scientific knowledge is justified by testing (empiricism)
Common sense is justified by guesswork
Religious knowledge by belief system

And so on.

Most intelligent people used applied empiricism- scientific method.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #712 on: May 10, 2015, 10:45:26 AM »
That may be your view (and that of Thatcher) but psychologists, sociologists, economists, psephologists, anthropologists, geographers, historians and many other academics give the lie to this.

But that aside you have totally missed what I have said. The dogs are either accurate or inaccurate. We can decide that either by folk belief (common sense) or scientific processes. One is guesswork, the other leads to knowledge.

Knowledge is belief justified by some means or another.

Scientific knowledge is justified by testing (empiricism)
Common sense is justified by guesswork
Religious knowledge by belief system

And so on.

Most intelligent people used applied empiricism- scientific method.

A lot of intelligent people have been questioning the usefulness of empiricism when applied to the study of people for years. Your pronouncements about handlers and dogs arise from studies. If the studies are inadequate the findings are inadequate. Sociologists, whom I know about, reject using the 'scientific method' you promote because people do not behave in a certain way, their behaviour is random and cannot be predicted or replicated like objects in the natural world. A scientific study of the natural world produces the same results if the same conditions are present. a study of handlers and dogs cannot be replicated, even with the same subjects. People think, react, try to please, try to understand, objects don't.

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OxfordBloo

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #713 on: May 10, 2015, 10:48:07 AM »
A lot of intelligent people have been questioning the usefulness of empiricism when applied to the study of people for years. Your pronouncements about handlers and dogs arise from studies. If the studies are inadequate the findings are inadequate. Sociologists, whom I know about, reject using the 'scientific method' you promote because people do not behave in a certain way, their behaviour is random and cannot be predicted or replicated like objects in the natural world. A scientific study of the natural world produces the same results if the same conditions are present. a study of handlers and dogs cannot be replicated, even with the same subjects. People think, react, try to please, try to understand, objects don't.

You suggest that some sociologists reject empiricism.

Please provide a cite for this claim.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #714 on: May 10, 2015, 11:22:08 AM »
You suggest that some sociologists reject empiricism.

Please provide a cite for this claim.

Google is your friend  @)(++(* but as i'm quite helpful here is just a taster of the problem which sociologists have identified with empiricism in the social sciences;

Thus, whilst empirical methods exist as adept to uncover cause and affect relationships in the
physical sciences, between inanimate objects which react in a constant and consistent manner,
the analysis of society and human behaviour is much more problematic. For both the theorist
and the social actor, do not exist as inanimate or passive objects living in a social vacuum, but
instead, exist as endowed with values and consciousness. As such, the behaviour of social
actors is often sporadic and thus difficult to replicate and verify.
https://www.essex.ac.uk/sociology/documents/pdf/ug_journal/vol7/2012SC301_DanielHendey_FINAL.pdf
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Offline pathfinder73

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #715 on: May 10, 2015, 11:33:12 AM »
No, it goes the other way. I am uncertain how reliable the dogs are. If you maintain they are error free, please provide the evidence. Until proved error free they must be assumed to be error prone. That is hiw science works.

Provide proof that Eddie has not alerted to cadaver scent. SY are looking for the proof.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

OxfordBloo

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #716 on: May 10, 2015, 11:43:12 AM »
Provide proof that Eddie has not alerted to cadaver scent. SY are looking for the proof.

Proving a negative is impossible. That is how logic works.

Up to others to confirm whether he was totally accurate or totally inaccurate. We just don't know and never sill because he is dead.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #717 on: May 10, 2015, 12:18:20 PM »
Proving a negative is impossible. That is how logic works.

Up to others to confirm whether he was totally accurate or totally inaccurate. We just don't know and never sill because he is dead.

That statement is fallacious and has been done to death on here.
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Alfred R Jones

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #718 on: May 10, 2015, 12:23:04 PM »
That statement is fallacious and has been done to death on here.
If it's fallacious, perhaps you could explain the scientific methodology one would need to utilize in order to prove that Eddie did not alert to a cadaver in Apartment 5a?

OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #719 on: May 10, 2015, 12:23:40 PM »
That statement is fallacious and has been done to death on here.

It is not universally true, but it is in law and science:

http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_religion_text/CHAPTER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm