Were the dog alerts in any way significant?

[pathfinder73]

Injured live people bleed.  Eddie was originally trained to scent Blood.

EVRD OPERATIONAL CASEWORK EXAMPLES

Northern Ireland, UK
A missing person, last seen returning from church, on foot, in N. Ireland. The
search of suspects 'burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any
evidence. A search by the E.V.R.D. identified a position in the rear passenger
foot well where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample
was taken and when analysed revealed the victims' DNA. The enquiry then
concentrated its efforts on the suspect and the E.V.R.D. located the body of
the woman in a river bank deposition site. Further searches identified a
Vol. IX p. 2482

location where the E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offenders
empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that
the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams
were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact
position.

[stephen25000]

Yes.

It is part of one of the Proven Facts.

Proven Facts are the basis on which the judgement is founded.

It was necessary to list the core facts of the case as published in the files to differentiate them from further facts known to Amaral.

The Proven Fact in context is:

The archiving summary of the case said that

 "6. The British Police Dogs "Eddie" and "Keela" detected human blood and cadaverine in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club."   '

So it is a fact that Tavares said that, not that it was a fact that the dogs detected human blood or cadaverine...

Thank you for that.

Can you provide a link to the judgement ?

[OxfordBloo]

Thank you for that.

Can you provide a link to the judgement ?

I have done so elsewhere on this site. I am not able to access my desktop currently where the URL is easily a available. I suggest you look through the main thread on the judgement sometime yesterday.

[stephen25000]

I have done so elsewhere on this site. I am not able to access my desktop currently where the URL is easily a available. I suggest you look through the main thread on the judgement sometime yesterday.

Thank you.

I will later after I finish work.

[OxfordBloo]

Judgement here:

http://www.eliphashardi.eu/

You seem to have been very vocal on the subject for someone who has neglected to read the Judgement.

[Lyall]

Judgement here:

http://www.eliphashardi.eu/

You seem to have been very vocal on the subject for someone who has neglected to read the Judgement.

That's in Portuguese

[Mr Gray]

Do I not? How patronising! The one alert that I find difficult to ignore is the one in the main bedroom of G5A. The CSI dog didn't alert there, so not blood. The alert is not proof of anything because no body was found in the apartment, but that alert meant that the dog found a scent he was trained to find. When he found it he was trained to bark. What was he alerting to therefore? If the dogs in Nepal alert people will dig. If nothing is found does that mean the dog is wrong? It could mean that the scent is reaching the dog from another direction. These dogs can't always be proved right, but neither can they be proved wrong in my opinion.

The first alert was given with the dogs head in the air without a positive area
being identified. This is the alert given by him when there is no tangible
evidence to be located only the remaining scent.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant

 Any contact with a cadaver which is then passed to any
other material may be recognised by the dog causing a 'trigger' indication.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

no one knows wahta the dogs alerted to...eddie first didn't react to cuddle cat..then he did..so on one occasion he was wrong


Grime said the alert was suggestive of cadaverine...that means cadaverine may be present..so may or may not...he doesn't tell us how suggestive the alert is so we do not know

[pathfinder73]

no one knows wahta the dogs alerted to...eddie first didn't react to cuddle cat..then he did..so on one occasion he was wrong


Grime said the alert was suggestive of cadaverine...that means cadaverine may be present..so may or may not...he doesn't tell us how suggestive the alert is so we do not know

Harron's murderer  confessed otherwise you would be saying the same thing. Forensics found nothing to confirm a body was there. Eddie found her body by following cadaver scent. What he was specially trained to find!

[G-Unit]

no one knows wahta the dogs alerted to...eddie first didn't react to cuddle cat..then he did..so on one occasion he was wrong


Grime said the alert was suggestive of cadaverine...that means cadaverine may be present..so may or may not...he doesn't tell us how suggestive the alert is so we do not know

What Grimes is adamant about is what the dogs do and don't do.

The dogs' passive CSI alert provides an indication as per their training and does not vary. They only give an alert when they are 'positive' that the target of the odour is present and immediately accessible. If they had any doubts they would not give an alert. EVRD gives an alert by means of a vocal bark. The variations in the vocal alert can be explained by many reasons such as 'thirst' or 'lack of air due to effort'. Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed. The signals of an alert are only just that. Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc.

Is there any chance, however remote, of any confusion'
The dogs do not get confused. They transmit a behavioural response inspired by the recognition of the odour for which they were trained.

So Eddie only alerts when the scent he is trained to find is there. He alerted in the main bedroom of G5A. Can anyone tell me what he was alerting to?

[slartibartfast]

What Grimes is adamant about is what the dogs do and don't do.

The dogs' passive CSI alert provides an indication as per their training and does not vary. They only give an alert when they are 'positive' that the target of the odour is present and immediately accessible. If they had any doubts they would not give an alert. EVRD gives an alert by means of a vocal bark. The variations in the vocal alert can be explained by many reasons such as 'thirst' or 'lack of air due to effort'. Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed. The signals of an alert are only just that. Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc.

Is there any chance, however remote, of any confusion'
The dogs do not get confused. They transmit a behavioural response inspired by the recognition of the odour for which they were trained.

So Eddie only alerts when the scent he is trained to find is there. He alerted in the main bedroom of G5A. Can anyone tell me what he was alerting to?

... And there is the main point behind discussion of the case.

[OxfordBloo]

That's in Portuguese

Open it in Chrome and you get a pretty damned good version. I read Spanish so can go back to the original for clarification if necessary.

One partial translation online severely misrepresents the judgement.

[pathfinder73]

These posts have been taken from the strange statements thread as they were off topic.

Thank you John.

[pathfinder73]

... And there is the main point behind discussion of the case.

Yes it is. They are trained daily and have regular testing. If they fail they're out. These dogs got top marks at FBI body farm and their record and reputation speaks for itself.  The yard are only searching for evidence of a body in PDL for one reason in this case.

[Lyall]

Open it in Chrome and you get a pretty damned good version. I read Spanish so can go back to the original for clarification if necessary.

One partial translation online severely misrepresents the judgement.

I can believe that. I found the one I think you mean. Ta. I will try Chrome.

[OxfordBloo]

Yes it is. They are trained daily and have regular testing. If they fail they're out. These dogs got top marks at FBI body farm and their record and reputation speaks for itself.  The yard are only searching for evidence of a body in PDL for one reason in this case.

I do not recognise that to be the case.

Dogs are certain to have false positives and false negatives.

Of course if they lose their 'knack' then they need to be retired.

But no one expects dogs to be 100%.

I would be interested to see your cite for Eddie and Keel getting top marks at the body farm.

Eddie and Keela's record is largely unknown except from non- independent sources.

Certainly they alerted repeatedly when no forensic evidence was present even in this case and bad done so regularly. These unknowns create an uncertainty about false positives.