Were the dog alerts in any way significant?

[G-Unit]

Another point about the dogs and Martin Grime. As he never met or spoke to Gerald McCann how did Gerald McCann know who Grime was and who he worked for, and why did he contact him?

At any time, did Gerald McCann address, either in Portugal or the United Kingdom, the performance of the dogs in this case''
I never met nor spoken to Gerald McCann. However I do know that he addressed my head supervisor at the time, the South Yorkshire Head of Police, or Mr. Meredith Hughes.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

[OxfordBloo]

Another point about the dogs and Martin Grime. As he never met or spoke to Gerald McCann how did Gerald McCann know who Grime was and who he worked for, and why did he contact him?

At any time, did Gerald McCann address, either in Portugal or the United Kingdom, the performance of the dogs in this case''
I never met nor spoken to Gerald McCann. However I do know that he addressed my head supervisor at the time, the South Yorkshire Head of Police, or Mr. Meredith Hughes.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

What relevance does that have?

Perhaps he used the internet to identify him.

[Carana]

Yes.

It is part of one of the Proven Facts.

Proven Facts are the basis on which the judgement is founded.

It was necessary to list the core facts of the case as published in the files to differentiate them from further facts known to Amaral.

The Proven Fact in context is:

The archiving summary of the case said that

 "6. The British Police Dogs "Eddie" and "Keela" detected human blood and cadaverine in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club."   '

So it is a fact that Tavares said that, not that it was a fact that the dogs detected human blood or cadaverine...

Yes, agreed.

[G-Unit]

What relevance does that have?

Perhaps he used the internet to identify him.

If you can give me a good reason why he should do that then fine. I can't think of one.

[Carana]

That's in Portuguese

Well, erm, yes, it is in Portuguese.

From the list of "Proven facts"
6. Os cães da polícia britânica “Eddie” e “Keela” detectaram marcas de odores de sangue humano e de cadáver no apartamento 5-A do Ocean Club [alínea AR) dos factos assentes].
7. Os cães da polícia britânica “Eddie” e “Keela” detectaram marcas de odores

de sangue humano e de cadáver num veículo automóvel alugado pelos autores Kate MacCann e Gerald MacCann após o desaparecimento de Madeleine [alínea AS) dos factos assentes].
8. Os autores Kate MacCann e Gerald MacCann foram constituídos arguidos no inquérito criminal [alínea F) dos factos assentes].

Indeed, if you look hard enough, you'll find at least one document in the files stating that this is what the dogs reacted to.

She is simply acknowledging that such a (cherry-picked) document does indeed exist.

However, the fact that such a document exists doesn't actually mean much as what Grime and Harrison actually said was that the alerts had no evidential value in the absence of corrorborating forensic results.

[Lyall]

Well, erm, yes, it is in Portuguese.

From the list of "Proven facts"
6. Os cães da polícia britânica “Eddie” e “Keela” detectaram marcas de odores de sangue humano e de cadáver no apartamento 5-A do Ocean Club [alínea AR) dos factos assentes].
7. Os cães da polícia britânica “Eddie” e “Keela” detectaram marcas de odores

de sangue humano e de cadáver num veículo automóvel alugado pelos autores Kate MacCann e Gerald MacCann após o desaparecimento de Madeleine [alínea AS) dos factos assentes].
8. Os autores Kate MacCann e Gerald MacCann foram constituídos arguidos no inquérito criminal [alínea F) dos factos assentes].

Indeed, if you look hard enough, you'll find at least one document in the files stating that this is what the dogs reacted to.

She is simply acknowledging that such a (cherry-picked) document does indeed exist.

However, the fact that such a document exists doesn't actually mean much as what Grime and Harrison actually said was that the alerts had no evidential value in the absence of corrorborating forensic results.

We know that Carana.

But the significance of the alerts - to us, and to the police in 2007, if not to a court -  is that they did not alert (falsely or otherwise) anywhere else.

Any police, anywhere in the world, would have taken them seriously.

[OxfordBloo]

If you can give me a good reason why he should do that then fine. I can't think of one.

Self interest.

[OxfordBloo]

We know that Carana.

But the significance of the alerts - to us, and to the police in 2007, if not to a court -  is that they did not alert (falsely or otherwise) anywhere else.

Any police, anywhere in the world, would have taken them seriously.

All dog alerts need to be taken seriously.

All dog alerts (or non alerts) provide no evidence, merely intelligence.

[G-Unit]

I do not recognise that to be the case.

Dogs are certain to have false positives and false negatives.

Of course if they lose their 'knack' then they need to be retired.

But no one expects dogs to be 100%.

I would be interested to see your cite for Eddie and Keel getting top marks at the body farm.

Eddie and Keela's record is largely unknown except from non- independent sources.

Certainly they alerted repeatedly when no forensic evidence was present even in this case and bad done so regularly. These unknowns create an uncertainty about false positives.

I thought the dogs did quite well.

Eddie alerted to the main bedroom, to the area behind the sofa in the living room, to the garden under the window, to the door of the hire car, to various items of clothing and to the toy 'cuddle cat'.

Keela alerted to the area behind the sofa in the living room and to the key and boot of the hire car.

In the areas where Keela alerted DNA evidence was found.

Nothing was found to support those alerts by Eddie which were not supported by Keela, but that is hardly surprising if he was alerting to cadaver scent.

[Lyall]

Judgement here:

http://www.eliphashardi.eu/

You seem to have been very vocal on the subject for someone who has neglected to read the Judgement.

I've read the translation now. The judge does seem very much concerned with the speed of publication of the book:

scant three days after the release of the order for termination of the investigation for lack of proof

which suggests perhaps that if it had been three months or three years instead the court may have viewed things differently, at least to some extent?

So the McCanns now have to pay the costs incurred by TVI, Guerra & Paz and VCFilmes and that decision will be unaffected by Amaral's appeal?

[OxfordBloo]

I've read the translation now. The judge does seem very much concerned with the speed of publication of the book:

scant three days after the release of the order for termination of the investigation for lack of proof

which suggests perhaps that if it had been three months or three years instead the court may have viewed things differently, at least to some extent?

So the McCanns now have to pay the costs incurred by TVI, Guerra & Paz and VCFilmes and that decision will be unaffected by Amaral's appeal?

Not really. The three day gap was a smoking gun, but there are also parts of the book (one section on Jane Tanner) that are not in the Files.

The costs mentioned seem to be court fees which are shared roughly equally all round. I believe that legal costs are Bourne by each side.

[G-Unit]

Self interest.

Interesting  &%+((£

[pathfinder73]

I do not recognise that to be the case.

Dogs are certain to have false positives and false negatives.

Of course if they lose their 'knack' then they need to be retired.

But no one expects dogs to be 100%.

I would be interested to see your cite for Eddie and Keel getting top marks at the body farm.

Eddie and Keela's record is largely unknown except from non- independent sources.

Certainly they alerted repeatedly when no forensic evidence was present even in this case and bad done so regularly. These unknowns create an uncertainty about false positives.

Have you got any proof of false alerts? According to Grime Eddie has none and the dogs passing with flying colours at FBI body farm comes from somebody close to Grime. The FBI used these dogs. The FBI wanted these dogs because they were outstanding at their job.

Vol IX p. 2481

FALSE ALERTS

'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.

Attracta dog helps FBI to track killer
Published: August 22, 2006

The sniffer dog that helped detectives jail evil killer Trevor Hamilton has just returned from assisting the FBI with a murder probe in America.
Six-year-old English springer spaniel Eddie’s career took off internationally shortly after he returned to Ulster for a third time to help in the hunt for missing Arlene Arkinson.
Eddie helped police nail Hamilton after the victim-recovery dog found blood from Attracta Harron (63) on a mat from Hamilton’s burnt-out Hyundai car.
He burned it the day that he murdered the retired librarian.
Eddie found her body in a shallow grave in April 2003.
Martin Grime, Eddie’s handler at the Dog Unit attached to South Yorkshire Police Station, today told how he has returned to Tyrone to search for Arlene (15).
She went missing after leaving a disco in Bundoran, Co Donegal, on August 13 1994.
Police have recently been concentrating their search in her native Castlederg in Tyrone, where it is thought she was murdered.
Mr Grime said today: “We were over earlier this year and three times in total since the Attracta Harron case.
“With the Attracta investigation we came over for a week and on the last day, before we came back to the UK, we decided we would search the car. The stuff Eddie found was then taken away for forensic examination.
“Then when a search area was identified Eddie found the body as well. As far as the Arlene case goes, however, there has been nothing to date.”
Eddie has just returned from the US where he has been helping the FBI in a murder case.
Mr Grime said: “Dogs like Eddie are very, very good at what they do and he has lots of operational experience.
“I do some training with him every day.”
Hamilton (23) received Ulster’s longest prison sentence after he was jailed for life for the murder of Mrs Harron.

http://www.goodnewsblog.com/2006/08/22/attracta-dog-helps-fbi-to-track-killer

[Carana]

We know that Carana.

But the significance of the alerts - to us, and to the police in 2007, if not to a court -  is that they did not alert (falsely or otherwise) anywhere else.

Any police, anywhere in the world, would have taken them seriously.

Of course they should be taken seriously - they might have revealed the evidence sought. As it happens, they didn't.

However, the judge clearly felt that the significance (or lack thereof) of dogs or anything else was not within the remit of the suit that she was presiding.

Her concern was whether a reference to dogs alerting, as Amaral stated, could be found in the files. Yes, there was such a reference.

She did also note - in a global fashion - that the "facts" didn't represent a global appreciation of the contents of the investigaton's files. Some of the later findings invalidated earlier ones, but these weren't presented.

She also noted his introduction to the documentary and the general approach which could be interpreted by the public to represent a PJ recontruction of events.

Here's the introduction to that "documentary":

Gonçalo Amaral
Former Polícia Judiciária coordinator
 
00.33 - My name is Gonçalo Amaral. I've been an investigator with the Polícia Judiciária for 27 years. I coordinated the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, on the 3rd of May 2007.
 
00.48 - During the following 50 minutes, I will prove that the child was not abducted, and that she died in the holiday apartment in Praia da Luz.
 
00.58 - Discover the whole truth about what happened that day – a death that many people want to cover up.
 
VC Filmes presents
 
Maddie The Truth of the Lie

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id225.html

[Carana]

Have you got any proof of false alerts? According to Grime Eddie has none and the dogs passing with flying colours at FBI body farm comes from somebody close to Grime. The FBI used these dogs. The FBI wanted these dogs because they were outstanding at their job.

Vol IX p. 2481

FALSE ALERTS

'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.

Attracta dog helps FBI to track killer
Published: August 22, 2006

The sniffer dog that helped detectives jail evil killer Trevor Hamilton has just returned from assisting the FBI with a murder probe in America.
Six-year-old English springer spaniel Eddie’s career took off internationally shortly after he returned to Ulster for a third time to help in the hunt for missing Arlene Arkinson.
Eddie helped police nail Hamilton after the victim-recovery dog found blood from Attracta Harron (63) on a mat from Hamilton’s burnt-out Hyundai car.
He burned it the day that he murdered the retired librarian.
Eddie found her body in a shallow grave in April 2003.
Martin Grime, Eddie’s handler at the Dog Unit attached to South Yorkshire Police Station, today told how he has returned to Tyrone to search for Arlene (15).
She went missing after leaving a disco in Bundoran, Co Donegal, on August 13 1994.
Police have recently been concentrating their search in her native Castlederg in Tyrone, where it is thought she was murdered.
Mr Grime said today: “We were over earlier this year and three times in total since the Attracta Harron case.
“With the Attracta investigation we came over for a week and on the last day, before we came back to the UK, we decided we would search the car. The stuff Eddie found was then taken away for forensic examination.
“Then when a search area was identified Eddie found the body as well. As far as the Arlene case goes, however, there has been nothing to date.”
Eddie has just returned from the US where he has been helping the FBI in a murder case.
Mr Grime said: “Dogs like Eddie are very, very good at what they do and he has lots of operational experience.
“I do some training with him every day.”
Hamilton (23) received Ulster’s longest prison sentence after he was jailed for life for the murder of Mrs Harron.

http://www.goodnewsblog.com/2006/08/22/attracta-dog-helps-fbi-to-track-killer

What are we discussing? Whether the dogs' alerts are significant to the investigation or whether they are somehow relevant to the outcome of the civil trial?

In what way does this thread differ from the dozens of others on here?