Author Topic: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?  (Read 174961 times)

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Offline jassi

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #75 on: May 02, 2015, 06:11:47 PM »
It has always intrigued me that DNA analysis has always been hailed as the gold standard in solving crime, yet when it came to the McCann case, suddenly it was 'too complex' to interpret.

One would think that if this is true, then it would happen frequently, and yet we never seem to hear of cases where this is put forward as a defence.
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OxfordBloo

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #76 on: May 02, 2015, 06:24:39 PM »
It has always intrigued me that DNA analysis has always been hailed as the gold standard in solving crime, yet when it came to the McCann case, suddenly it was 'too complex' to interpret.

One would think that if this is true, then it would happen frequently, and yet we never seem to hear of cases where this is put forward as a defence.

DNA analysis of single samples where there are only the markers from a single person are extremely accurate.

DNA analysis from cellular samples of mixed DNA are moderately useful.

What was used here was LCN DNA low copy number DNA. No cellular material was found, merely liquid contamination of trace amounts.

LCN DNA uses multiplier effects to reconstruct the DNA strands when only trace amounts unsuitable for analysis are available. It is still uncertain whether this process is adequate for court evidence.

Add to that the sample in this case was not from one person bur from three to five persons. Statistically any mixed sample from a random five Europeans would be fifty percent likely to contain 15 of Madeleine's markers.

Add to that that the extra people could have been family who would all share a selection of a limited number of markers (and a mixture of Kate and Gerry's DNA would necessarily contain all of Madeleine's markers)

Total that up and LCN DNA analysis of a mixed sample of three to five donors' DNA, some of whom may have been (probably were) family, then it was not surprising that 15/19 of Madeleine's DNA was present.

Offline Carana

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #77 on: May 02, 2015, 06:25:43 PM »
This topic was resurrected because Pathfinder has shown that Eddie signalled to the T-Shirt Gerry was seen wearing on the morning after Madeleine went missing.
This T-Shirt was not highlighted in the Eddie & Keela videos as having been contaminated by cadaver or blood. Only Sean's T-Shirt & Kate's top & trousers were honed in on by the cameraman. Is that because the PJ were intent on pinning a crime on Kate?
Has Grime made a mistake in identifying what Eddie was alerting to? What was  the difference between Eddie picking up Sean's T-Shirt & barking & then almost picking up Gerry's T-Shirt & barking? - then standing over other clothes & just barking?
If the Grime was unable to precisely identify which items Eddie (not Keela) was really marking, were the indications worth anything at all?

The first item of clothing that Eddie threw up in the air and woofed at was a tiny pair of blue shorts, just beside the red plane T-shirt.

Grime said that the PJ had details of what Eddie alerted to - he apparently didn't. If you compare the video to the PJ list, it's somewhat confusing what the dog actually did alert to.

Offline Carana

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #78 on: May 02, 2015, 06:50:12 PM »
DNA analysis of single samples where there are only the markers from a single person are extremely accurate.

DNA analysis from cellular samples of mixed DNA are moderately useful.

What was used here was LCN DNA low copy number DNA. No cellular material was found, merely liquid contamination of trace amounts.

LCN DNA uses multiplier effects to reconstruct the DNA strands when only trace amounts unsuitable for analysis are available. It is still uncertain whether this process is adequate for court evidence.

Add to that the sample in this case was not from one person bur from three to five persons. Statistically any mixed sample from a random five Europeans would be fifty percent likely to contain 15 of Madeleine's markers.

Add to that that the extra people could have been family who would all share a selection of a limited number of markers (and a mixture of Kate and Gerry's DNA would necessarily contain all of Madeleine's markers)

Total that up and LCN DNA analysis of a mixed sample of three to five donors' DNA, some of whom may have been (probably were) family, then it was not surprising that 15/19 of Madeleine's DNA was present.

Amaral clearly didn't understand what he was talking about, but insisted that he was an expert. And people did (and still do) believe that the only explanation for 15 matching alleles (not exclusive to her in any case) was that her thawing body had been in the boot.

In a way it's a shame that some of these issues couldn't have been dealt with in the trial, but I do understand why they couldn't be.

Offline VIXTE

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #79 on: May 02, 2015, 10:39:59 PM »
For me, and I have been following this case very close since the day 2, the most significant were the Portuguese dogs trails. They came in very soon after the disappearance and they should have been investigated more.


Pity the opportunity was missed to find out who parked their car where the GNR dogs lost Madeleine's track. I personally feel this would be the most significant lead.

Offline sadie

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #80 on: May 02, 2015, 11:59:14 PM »
For me, and I have been following this case very close since the day 2, the most significant were the Portuguese dogs trails. They came in very soon after the disappearance and they should have been investigated more.


Pity the opportunity was missed to find out who parked their car where the GNR dogs lost Madeleine's track. I personally feel this would be the most significant lead.
I agree Vixte. 

Quite probably very significant. 

That little car park opposite the tapas reception is where it makes sense that the abductors kept their getaway vehicle.

Offline Brietta

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #81 on: May 03, 2015, 12:05:38 AM »
For me, and I have been following this case very close since the day 2, the most significant were the Portuguese dogs trails. They came in very soon after the disappearance and they should have been investigated more.


Pity the opportunity was missed to find out who parked their car where the GNR dogs lost Madeleine's track. I personally feel this would be the most significant lead.

I agree VIXTE.  The Portuguese dogs followed the trail independently of each other and mirrored each other's route exactly, both losing the trail at the same location.
If they had been following Madeleine's route to the children's club surely they would have continued and not stopped at the car park.

I don't think enough significance was paid to their reaction at the door of 5J.  The rotting food situation should have raised more interest and queries than it did.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Brietta

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #82 on: May 03, 2015, 12:06:33 AM »
I agree Vixte. 

Quite probably very significant. 

That little car park opposite the tapas reception is where it makes sense that the abductors kept their getaway vehicle.

LOL ... great minds ...
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline G-Unit

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #83 on: May 03, 2015, 11:53:51 AM »
For me, and I have been following this case very close since the day 2, the most significant were the Portuguese dogs trails. They came in very soon after the disappearance and they should have been investigated more.


Pity the opportunity was missed to find out who parked their car where the GNR dogs lost Madeleine's track. I personally feel this would be the most significant lead.

I agree. Particularly the route taken by the dogs to reach the car park. There is nothing to suggest that Madeleine ever went left out of the front door and then cut down to the path behind the apartments.
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #84 on: May 03, 2015, 12:24:07 PM »
Look up the Black Swan effect on Wikipedia. Knowledge does not increase with additional confirmation, only by proving the opposite. Also 'heroic' dogs which help get a conviction get press coverage, unhelpful dog results do not.

Every scientific analysis of scent dogs which was adequately designed and available has shown at least a few and often many false positives and false negatives.

So is your belief that the Mucky Duck Effect has a bearing on the results and their interpretation, in the wider sense, when using EVR Dogs?

I don't follow so perhaps you would like to explain your argument slowly using plenty of small words so I don't become confused?
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Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #85 on: May 03, 2015, 12:35:25 PM »
I agree Vixte. 

Quite probably very significant. 

That little car park opposite the tapas reception is where it makes sense that the abductors kept their getaway vehicle.
That car park is overlooked by the balcony of 606, where the Balu's and the Berry's were having their dinner and wine for the entire duration of the episode.

It is in open view of the T9 as they went to Tapas in dribs and drabs, and directly in front those of the T9 carrying out checks, at the point they exited the Tapas.

It is not a smart place for a getaway vehicle.

(Post corrected - originally said 605 - which is wrong.)

I would guess this has been debated to death already, but I'm not going to search for dog alerts, as I have better things to fritter away my time.  I'll simply say I don't think the trail went cold there. 

By the way, if it did, that was the short cut between 5A and OC 24 hr reception, which Madeleine took at least 3 times a day, (and probably 4).
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 01:19:16 PM by ShiningInLuz »
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Offline Carana

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #86 on: May 03, 2015, 12:47:05 PM »
I agree VIXTE.  The Portuguese dogs followed the trail independently of each other and mirrored each other's route exactly, both losing the trail at the same location.
If they had been following Madeleine's route to the children's club surely they would have continued and not stopped at the car park.

I don't think enough significance was paid to their reaction at the door of 5J.  The rotting food situation should have raised more interest and queries than it did.

I agree as well.

Why was Eddie only tasked to check places directly related to the erstwhile arguidos (with only a quick sniff around the accommodation of the T7) as opposed to a broader sniff of other places of potential interest?


OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #87 on: May 03, 2015, 12:53:50 PM »
So is your belief that the Mucky Duck Effect has a bearing on the results and their interpretation, in the wider sense, when using EVR Dogs?

I don't follow so perhaps you would like to explain your argument slowly using plenty of small words so I don't become confused?

People who are trying to suggest that the McCanns were guilty of some offence against Madeleine need to claim that the dogs' reactions are probative evidence that a body was present in the apartment, and had contact with the clothes and the back of the car. They have misunderstood that most of the alerts were explainable by reaction to trace amounts of blood that could have come from any source, living or cadaver. This is because both Eddie and Keela alert to dried blood as per their training. Two results do suggest the possibility (not certainty) of cadaver odour- the cupboard and some clothes. An indication of cadaver odour requires a positive from Eddie and a negative from Keela.

Scent dogs are not 100% accurate. Even in this case there were reactions with no residue found which were either true reactions to minimal amounts or false alerts; se cannot know which.

Animal psychology studies show that animals are open to cueing- the Clever Hans effect. One study that used no target scent managed to get handlers to claim positive alerts only from those patches that they themselves believed to be contaminated even though all were clean

In summary to this point, dogs are a very useful indication of evidence but do not have any probative value as the law believes the science that the dogs are not infallible, in that they do make false positive and false negative alerts.

So what do people do who want to support their views that the McCanns are guilty. Well, they list case after case which hits the news where dogs were useful. No one has denied that the dogs were useful, but no one can show that the dogs are infallible.

So we have a scientific situation where Group A say "Scent Dogs are known to make errors even though they may be useful in finding evidence but they are not probative." and Group B say " But dogs have proved to be useful in all these cases. Group A say that that is very interesting, but producing further examples of utility is not helpful because it ignores failure to report the times that dogs are proved in error or uncertain.

It is called the Black Swan effect because before 1700 an example used in logic of a true statement was that 'all swans are white'. For centuries this was held to be the truth as every year more and more white swans were noted by ornithologists and logicians. Then Australia was discovered along with its black swans. One black swan added more information than a million more white swans could not.

This is the problem of 'induction'- it ignores possible future exceptions and any past ones that were not recorded.

In scientific terms it means that

If one is saying 'X is Y' is true
Arguing that every X observed has always been Y
Adding further examples of X being Y does not add to the truth of the statement.
But one example of X being not Y overturns the contention.

So listing newspaper items about successful scent dogs does not affect the truth value of "All dogs are infallible" but one case of fallibility means that what is true is that "Scent dogs are NOT infallible."

Because scent dogs including Eddie and Keela have reacted when there is no evidence found, then by logic (not belief) 'Some scent dogs are fallible' which means that "Scent dogs are not infallible."


OxfordBloo

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #88 on: May 03, 2015, 12:58:16 PM »
I agree as well.

Why was Eddie only tasked to check places directly related to the erstwhile arguidos (with only a quick sniff around the accommodation of the T7) as opposed to a broader sniff of other places of potential interest?

The full half hour video of the dogs in the car park is an appalling exercise. I am trained in Human Behavioural Observation and understand how observer bias can affect collection of evidence. Grime forces Eddie to return to the McCanns car eleven times (the one with the prominent Maddie posters) yet allows him to continue after one return to all the others. This is edited out of the shorter version published by the Sun.

Offline Carew

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #89 on: May 03, 2015, 01:14:02 PM »
.............and off we go with another thread appearing to be for the sole purpose..........yet again..........of traducing a dog handler.

Was any official censure ever forthcoming as a result of the "appalling exercise?"