Author Topic: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?  (Read 180731 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #135 on: May 03, 2015, 06:06:37 PM »
How can you even start to 'know' whether Eddie or Keela were 'right'.

You do realise I hope that a reaction from Eddie alone can signify blood without cadaver odour?.

Keela alerts to blood. DNA was found where she alerted. although the FSS didn't know what bodily fluids the DNA came from it is more likely than not to be blood because that is what Keela detects; not other bodily fluids. Sometimes the dogs know more than the scientists.

Eddie alerts to blood and cadaver scent. He alerted to the car. Keela also alerted, confirming that blood was present. DNA was found. The FSS didn't know which bodily fluid was there. Keela alerts only to blood so it probably was blood.

Eddie alerted in places where Keela didn't. Because Keela didn't alert, he was likely to be alerting to cadaver scent.
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Alfred R Jones

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #136 on: May 03, 2015, 06:08:55 PM »
Did Keela alert anywhere else apart from to the McCanns' property?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #137 on: May 03, 2015, 06:11:41 PM »
Did Keela alert anywhere else apart from to the McCanns' property?

Are you asking me?
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Alfred R Jones

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #138 on: May 03, 2015, 06:13:09 PM »
Are you asking me?
Anyone who knows the answer.

OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #139 on: May 03, 2015, 06:14:44 PM »
Keela alerts to blood. DNA was found where she alerted. although the FSS didn't know what bodily fluids the DNA came from it is more likely than not to be blood because that is what Keela detects; not other bodily fluids. Sometimes the dogs know more than the scientists.

Eddie alerts to blood and cadaver scent. He alerted to the car. Keela also alerted, confirming that blood was present. DNA was found. The FSS didn't know which bodily fluid was there. Keela alerts only to blood so it probably was blood.

Eddie alerted in places where Keela didn't. Because Keela didn't alert, he was likely to be alerting to cadaver scent.

Dogs never 'know' anything. They may sense things but do not have 'knowledge' which requires higher cognitive function.

You cannot know anything about what Eddie or Keela alerted to because of the uncertainty involved.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #140 on: May 03, 2015, 06:17:48 PM »
How can you even start to 'know' whether Eddie or Keela were 'right'.

You do realise I hope that a reaction from Eddie alone can signify blood without cadaver odour?.

Yes, but if Keela doesn't alert at the same spot it indicate cadaver.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline G-Unit

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OxfordBloo

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #142 on: May 03, 2015, 06:19:39 PM »
Yes, but if Keela doesn't alert at the same spot it indicate cadaver.

Let us be specific.

Eddie reacting a d Keela not indicates the POSSIBILITY of cadaver odour.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #143 on: May 03, 2015, 06:23:12 PM »
The dogs relate to unconscious 'tells'. Those tells are not continuous but increase when the handler is cued. For instance Eddie could not have failed to understand that cuddle cat was of interest or the Renault was of interest because Grime's repeated call backs would have acted as a tell.

CC is a toy so it was hidden in the cupboard so Eddie couldn't see it.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.


OxfordBloo

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Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #145 on: May 03, 2015, 06:27:10 PM »
CC is a toy so it was hidden in the cupboard so Eddie couldn't see it.

Grime handled it and repeatedly asked Eddie to check it. That is a tell.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #146 on: May 03, 2015, 06:27:29 PM »
Dogs never 'know' anything. They may sense things but do not have 'knowledge' which requires higher cognitive function.

You cannot know anything about what Eddie or Keela alerted to because of the uncertainty involved.

Don't play word games - you know very well what I meant! You may not believe that these dogs are useful tools but I do, and I'm not alone.
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #147 on: May 03, 2015, 06:28:59 PM »
Is that a yes or a no then?  CBA'ed to trawl through that lot again.

Well I'm not your researcher - unless you're paying, that is?
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Offline pathfinder73

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #148 on: May 03, 2015, 06:30:26 PM »
Keela alerts to blood. DNA was found where she alerted. although the FSS didn't know what bodily fluids the DNA came from it is more likely than not to be blood because that is what Keela detects; not other bodily fluids. Sometimes the dogs know more than the scientists.

Eddie alerts to blood and cadaver scent. He alerted to the car. Keela also alerted, confirming that blood was present. DNA was found. The FSS didn't know which bodily fluid was there. Keela alerts only to blood so it probably was blood.

Eddie alerted in places where Keela didn't. Because Keela didn't alert, he was likely to be alerting to cadaver scent.

The dogs have shown to be better than forensics. Look at the Harron case for a perfect example. Forensics found nothing in Hamilton's burnt out car or Adrian Prout but Eddie did. His work helped solve both cases. Eddie has a knack of getting things right. Pity the same thing can't be said about forensics.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #149 on: May 03, 2015, 06:32:29 PM »
Grime was somewhat disingenuous in his statement, which for me rings some alarm bells:

"Ten vehicles were screened in an underground multi storey car park at
Portimao. The vehicles, of which I did not know the owner details, were
parked on an empty floor with 20-30 feet between each. The vehicle
placement video recording and management of the process was conducted
by the PJ. The EVRD was then tasked to search the area. When passing a
vehicle I now know to be hired and in the possession of the McCann family,
the dog's behaviour changed substantially. This then produced an alert
indication at the lower part of the drivers door where the dog was biting and
barking. I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from
the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door."

The video clearly shows a "find madeleine" poster in the rear nearside window the car.   And yet Grime claims he had no prior knowledge of the provenance of the car.  Really?

The video then shows the dog at each car in turn, being called back once to each vehicle and then moving on.

Until he comes to the McCanns car (the only one with the posters of Madeleine in the windows).

And one the first, second, third, fourth and fifth passes the dog showed no interest in the car.  The handler remains by the car.  The video then shows Grime pointing to certain parts of the car and eventually the dog does alert on the 8th or 9th attempt.

I would love someone to explain to me how that is not a demonstration of cueing by the dog's handler. 


Video 1:13 and 1:18 to 1:24 approx.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id167.html