Author Topic: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?  (Read 180727 times)

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OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #225 on: May 04, 2015, 09:01:48 AM »
That's the problem, this is a discussion forum, the supporters seem to think it is a trial and resort to arguments that are only really applicable in a court of law. That doesn't really contribute to enlightenment just stifle the debate.

What you call enlightenment others would call delusion.

Enlightenment as you describe it ignores facts including scientific facts.

For debate read gossip.





Offline jassi

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #226 on: May 04, 2015, 09:04:41 AM »
What you call enlightenment others would call delusion.

Enlightenment as you describe it ignores facts including scientific facts.

For debate read gossip.


I suppose if you don't like that, you don't need to join in and give your oh so superior view  @)(++(*
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #227 on: May 04, 2015, 09:06:17 AM »
I suppose if you don't like that, you don't need to join in and give your oh so superior view  @)(++(*

Glad you recognise my position.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #228 on: May 04, 2015, 09:07:26 AM »

The dogs provided absolutely no evidence which could be used in a court of law ~ kangaroo courts don't count ~ in what way is stating that discrediting the handler?

Please read the posts criticising the trainer/handler to which I was replying.
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OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #229 on: May 04, 2015, 09:55:08 AM »
Back on topic.

Copied from another thread:

Grime states that although Keela alerts very specifically to a small area where blood is found, Eddie was trained to alert to the general odour of death in a wider area. This is normal for rescue dogs as they are trained to follow an odour gradient.

The clothes were bundled together and we know that odour transfers from item to item in close proximity.

The 'couple' of alerts are to 5a and to clothes. The clothes had also been in 5a so a single source could have existed.

It is worth remembering that the scientifically determined best estimate for scent dogs is of the order of 80%. Statistically this error rate is increased for tests that require two alerts, the uncertainty increases by the multiple of each individual test, leading to a joint Eddie/Keela alert is 80% of 80%, or 64%. So each of those alerts has a two out of three possibility of being true or more importantly a one on three chance of being wrong.

So we have moved from a contention that there were multiple alerts indicating cadaver odour to the possibility that it was actually a single source detected with an chance of one in three being totally incorrect.

That is the truth value of the dogs.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #230 on: May 04, 2015, 10:13:34 AM »
Do we know if any of the police who handled the clothes...who searched 5a or who drove  the car had had contact with a cadaver. As Grime pointed out...the alerts could have been due to contamination

Offline lordpookles

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #231 on: May 04, 2015, 10:17:16 AM »
^ And when you consider the history of other officers involved in this case anything becomes possible. I'm as suspicious of the McCanns as the next person but one should really keep an open mind.

Offline John

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #232 on: May 04, 2015, 10:18:23 AM »
Do we know if any of the police who handled the clothes...who searched 5a or who drove  the car had had contact with a cadaver. As Grime pointed out...the alerts could have been due to contamination

There is no doubt that Eddie's alerts in 5a were compelling but as to what they actually represented is another question.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Brietta

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #233 on: May 04, 2015, 10:24:10 AM »
That's the problem, this is a discussion forum, the supporters seem to think it is a trial and resort to arguments that are only really applicable in a court of law. That doesn't really contribute to enlightenment just stifle the debate.

There are those who apparently are averse to enlightenment in any form whatsoever if it entails truth rather than innuendo.

If you wish to discuss lies, fable and myth I suggest you may be on the wrong forum for that.  This one relies on more than mantras such as "Dogs Don't Lie" rather than dogs being an investigative tool which cannot provide evidence of wrongdoing without corroboration.

Information derived from scientific studies has been given ad nauseam as to the capabilities of working dogs, perhaps you should avail yourself of following one or two which might lead you to forming a more rounded opinion on the subject.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #234 on: May 04, 2015, 10:29:53 AM »
Do we know if any of the police who handled the clothes...who searched 5a or who drove  the car had had contact with a cadaver. As Grime pointed out...the alerts could have been due to contamination

It is really worth looking at the video of the dogs and clothes. The clothes had been gathered up and put into large boxes, not individually bagged. They were thrown on the floor in a public room onto the floor that had not been covered with clean paper.

Every chance of multiple cross contamination.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #235 on: May 04, 2015, 11:07:09 AM »
He didn't need the dogs then he could do it on his own lol. He cued them behind the couch; blood behind the couch. He cued the car; blood in the car. That's  believable. Another professional being doubted because of this case.
Did you get a chance to read this?  If so, what's your view?

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/welcome/features/2010-2011/02/20110223_drug_dogs.html

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #236 on: May 04, 2015, 11:11:12 AM »
That's the problem, this is a discussion forum, the supporters seem to think it is a trial and resort to arguments that are only really applicable in a court of law. That doesn't really contribute to enlightenment just stifle the debate.
What would be truly enlightened is if dog fans acknowledged that these creatures and their handlers are not supernatural brings and do make mistakes, as this research clearly shows http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/welcome/features/2010-2011/02/20110223_drug_dogs.html

Offline G-Unit

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #237 on: May 04, 2015, 11:39:10 AM »
I find it enlightening that some people spend time trawling the internet for 'proof' on the 'notorious unreliability' of dogs used in various scenarios. why is it so important to discredit the usefulness of these dogs? I find that most significant.
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Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
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Offline pathfinder73

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #238 on: May 04, 2015, 11:44:52 AM »
Back on topic.

Copied from another thread:

Grime states that although Keela alerts very specifically to a small area where blood is found, Eddie was trained to alert to the general odour of death in a wider area. This is normal for rescue dogs as they are trained to follow an odour gradient.

The clothes were bundled together and we know that odour transfers from item to item in close proximity.

The 'couple' of alerts are to 5a and to clothes. The clothes had also been in 5a so a single source could have existed.

It is worth remembering that the scientifically determined best estimate for scent dogs is of the order of 80%. Statistically this error rate is increased for tests that require two alerts, the uncertainty increases by the multiple of each individual test, leading to a joint Eddie/Keela alert is 80% of 80%, or 64%. So each of those alerts has a two out of three possibility of being true or more importantly a one on three chance of being wrong.

So we have moved from a contention that there were multiple alerts indicating cadaver odour to the possibility that it was actually a single source detected with an chance of one in three being totally incorrect.

That is the truth value of the dogs.

Irrelevant general dog statistics. I thought you were going to say that Eddie was EVRD and was highly skilled with special training techniques. Where forensics find nothing Eddie or Keela do!

'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate human blood to such small proportions that it is unlikely to be recovered by the forensic science procedures in place at this time due to its size or placement.

She will locate contaminated weapons, screen motor vehicles and items of clothing and examine crime scenes for minute human blood deposits. She will accurately locate human blood on items that have been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several washing machine cycles.

STU MACHINE

I have developed the training of the E.V.R.D. to include the screening of scent
pads taken from motor vehicles, property or scenes by a Scent Transference
Unit. Operational use of the STU is in a developmental and evaluative stage
used in conjunction with selective FBI casework. The unis is in a two-part
design. The main body is a battery operated electrical device that draws air in
at to the front and exhausts through the rear. There is no 're-circulation' of air
within the unit. The second part is a 'grilled' hood that fits to the main body. A
sterile gauze pad is fitted into the hood. When operated, the STU draws air
through the hood and the sterile gauze pad and exhausts through ports to the
rear. 'Scent' is trapped in the gauze, which may then be forensically stored for
use within scent discrimination exercises.

The STU is cleaned following use in such a manner that no residual scent is
apparent. This is checked by control measures where the dog is allowed to
search a given area where the STU is secreted. Any response by the dog
would suggest contamination. Tests have shown that the decontamination
procedures are effective in this case with the dog NOT alerting to the device
when completed. Use of the STU is considered when subject vehicles,
property, clothing, premises are to be forensically protected from
contamination by the dog, and for covert deployment. At all other times best
practice would be for the dog to be given direct access.

Gerry: I can tell you that we have also looked at evidence about (haha) cadaver dogs and they are incredibly unreliable.

Sandra: Unreliable?

Gerry: Cadaver dogs, yes. That's what the evidence shows, if they are tested scientifically."

They want to highlight the judge's dismissal of cadaver dog evidence in the high-profile Eugene Zapata murder trial in Madison, Wisconsin.
The couple's lawyers have already contacted Zapata's defence team, who are now sending their large file on the matter to Britain.
Zapata's estranged wife, flight instructor Jeanette Zapata, was 37 when she vanished on October 11 1976 after seeing her three children off to school. Her body has never been found.
 8@??)(
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #239 on: May 04, 2015, 11:45:22 AM »
I find it enlightening that some people spend time trawling the internet for 'proof' on the 'notorious unreliability' of dogs used in various scenarios. why is it so important to discredit the usefulness of these dogs? I find that most significant.

Because that is how forensic science works.

You start with an unknown and work towards facts.

Science shows that dogs do not indicate facts but possibilities of facts.



The important question is why some people are so desperate to say that the dogs produce facts rather than intelligence.