Were the dog alerts in any way significant?

[Alfred R Jones]

Rather than trawl the internet to prove my point I am limiting myself to this case and these dogs. The dogs were correct in two alerts. You cannot disprove that no matter how many articles you quote. Why should Eddie's other alerts be discounted therefore? He could have been wrong, but equally he could have been right. I don't know and neither does anyone else. When and if living child is found we will all know.

So you're only giving them a 50/50 chance of being right?  OK fair enough.  Incidentally Madeleine's remains could be found tomorrow and it wouldn't prove the dogs right. 

[G-Unit]

I still don't understand your basis for saying "The dogs were correct in two alerts." How can you possibly know that in the absence of any corroborating forensic evidence?

Eddie alerted behind the couch in G5A and to the car. Keela also alerted. Samples were taken and DNA was found. Finding DNA in the samples means the dog alerts were correct. Forensic analysis was not able to say what the substance sampled was, but as Keela alerts to blood and only blood we can assume that the substance was blood. If the alerts were due to 'bias' please tell me how Grime knew where the samples were going to be found?

[Carana]

Eddie alerted behind the couch in G5A and to the car. Keela also alerted. Samples were taken and DNA was found. Finding DNA in the samples means the dog alerts were correct. Forensic analysis was not able to say what the substance sampled was, but as Keela alerts to blood and only blood we can assume that the substance was blood. If the alerts were due to 'bias' please tell me how Grime knew where the samples were going to be found?

Why would "Finding DNA in the samples means the dog alerts were correct"? If they'd examined any other area in the apartment, they'd have found DNA samples as well. Sorry, I'm not following the logic.

[pathfinder73]

Hate to be pedantic but sometimes the devil is in the detail ... the key fob wasn't put into the bucket of sand ... it was but underneath the box which contained sand.


**snip
At about 04.14 it was observed that the dog ?marked? the area of a box containing sand from the Fire Service, underneath which, effectively, the vehicle?s key had been hidden.

**snip
At about 04.51, it was observed that the dog ?marked? the area of the box containing sand from the Fire Service, underneath which the key had been hidden.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm

At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm

[pathfinder73]

Are the dogs psychic then?  They know when they are meant to be looking for blood and bits of body and they know when to pipe down without anyone having to tell them?

They work as a team. Eddie finds cadaver scent. Keela confirms if blood is there or not.

[Alfred R Jones]

They work as a team. Eddie finds cadaver scent. Keela confirms if blood is there or not.

Tell me something I don't know.  What PROMPTS them to start searching for blood and cadaver?  What PREVENTS them from alerting to blood and cadaver scent when "off-duty"?

[jassi]

Perhaps they do - its not as if they are going to be in contact with these things all day, every day

[pathfinder73]

Tell me something I don't know.  What PROMPTS them to start searching for blood and cadaver?  What PREVENTS them from alerting to blood and cadaver scent when "off-duty"?

What has that got to do with this case. Maybe they like to play when their not working. Eddie would bark if he was out somewhere not working and detected that death scent. He has been trained to do it!

[Brietta]

At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm

Think about it very carefully.

The key fob was evidence which was to be bagged and sent off for forensic testing. 

Are you seriously suggesting the PJ deliberately buried it in sand and risked contamination?

[Alice Purjorick]

What part of dog handler bias do you struggle with Alice?  Are you denying that it exists?

I am not struggling with anything sunshine. You seem to want to make something out of my post that wasn't there.

[Benice]

Because they are trained every day of their lives and know how to their job properly. These dogs are looking for evidence of a body not a razor cut in the bathroom.

The dogs are not on duty 24/7.  They go to work when directed by their owner.  When they are not working they behave and are treated like any other dog.  However - they have no idea they are 'working' in the way we know they are.

They are not looking for evidence - they are searching for a particular smell and if they find it they will be rewarded.    That is the limit of their interest and involvement.    They have no idea they are doing a 'job'.   It's basically a game which they enjoy because all dogs love pleasing their owners and love rewards.   I can assure you that neither Eddie or Keela even knew what a policeman was -  let alone know they were part of a 'case'.

AIMHO.

   

[OxfordBloo]

They work as a team. Eddie finds cadaver scent. Keela confirms if blood is there or not.

No. Eddie finds blood scent and/or cadaver.

An alert by Eddie alone does not indicate cadaver scent.

[Brietta]

The dogs are not on duty 24/7.  They go to work when directed by their owner.  When they are not working they behave and are treated like any other dog.  However - they have no idea they are 'working' in the way we know they are.

They are not looking for evidence - they are searching for a particular smell and if they find it they will be rewarded.    That is the limit of their interest and involvement.    They have no idea they are doing a 'job'.   It's basically a game which they enjoy because all dogs love pleasing their owners and love rewards.   I can assure you that neither Eddie or Keela even knew what a policeman was -  let alone know they were part of a 'case'.

AIMHO.

   

Might be 'just' your opinion, Benice, but very well thought out and explained as well as being an informed one ... and in my opinion ... absolutely spot on!

[jassi]

I seems to me that in the research quoted handlers were led to believe that there was a scent where the visible marker was and could therefore indicate this to the dog. In a real life situation, there would be no such visible marker and therefore no indication could be given to the dog.

[OxfordBloo]

I seems to me that in the research quoted handlers were led to believe that there was a scent where the visible marker was and could therefore indicate this to the dog. In a real life situation, there would be no such visible marker and therefore no indication could be given to the dog.

That is exactly the point.

There was no scent anywhere.

When there was a visible marker which the handlers knew about, the dogs alerted there.

This was because the unconscious tells were picked up by the dogs and they reacted.

There is no other rational explanation for why the dogs alerted only where their trainers believed there to be scent.