Were the dog alerts in any way significant?

[Benice]

I seems to me that in the research quoted handlers were led to believe that there was a scent where the visible marker was and could therefore indicate this to the dog. In a real life situation, there would be no such visible marker and therefore no indication could be given to the dog.

The handlers were made aware of where they thought the scent should be detected by the use of markers.     Grime's  equivalent 'markers' were when he was made aware that 5a was the McCanns apartment and that the Renault was their car.   

[jassi]

I realise what the point was, but in a real life situation there would be no visible marker to trigger a cue.
Was the experiment repeated without any visible markers, I wonder?

In an experiment such as described, it is in the handler's interest to cue a reaction - his dog passes the test. There is no such self interest in a real situation

[G-Unit]

The handlers were made aware of where they thought the scent should be detected by the use of markers.     Grime's  equivalent 'markers' were when he was made aware that 5a was the McCanns apartment and that the Renault was their car.

So why behind the couch? How did he know to put the dogs there?

[Carew]

The dogs are not on duty 24/7.  They go to work when directed by their owner.  When they are not working they behave and are treated like any other dog.  However - they have no idea they are 'working' in the way we know they are.

They are not looking for evidence - they are searching for a particular smell and if they find it they will be rewarded.    That is the limit of their interest and involvement.    They have no idea they are doing a 'job'.   It's basically a game which they enjoy because all dogs love pleasing their owners and love rewards.   I can assure you that neither Eddie or Keela even knew what a policeman was -  let alone know they were part of a 'case'.

AIMHO.

   

Do you feel, then, that it is the particular smell which prompts the dog to alert , rather than the cue of the handler at individual sites or items?

What "reward" did the handler give the dog during the searches in relation to each alert?

Are you suggesting that anticipation of a reward at the end of the days work or at some time in the future will prompt the dog to alert during a search?

[OxfordBloo]

I realise what the point was, but in a real life situation there would be no visible marker to trigger a cue.
Was the experiment repeated without any visible markers, I wonder?

In an experiment such as described, it is in the handler's interest to cue a reaction - his dog passes the test. There is no such self interest in a real situation

FFS read the research. There were four conditions including no markers and no scents.  IIRC they also excluded dogs visually cuing the red patches.

[Carana]

Tell me something I don't know.  What PROMPTS them to start searching for blood and cadaver?  What PREVENTS them from alerting to blood and cadaver scent when "off-duty"?

There must be some kind of signal to tell them that they are on work duty otherwise they'd yap all day.

Are the specific commands only used when working?

[OxfordBloo]

Do you feel, then, that it is the particular smell which prompts the dog to alert , rather than the cue of the handler at individual sites or items?

What "reward" did the handler give the dog during the searches in relation to each alert?

Are you suggesting that anticipation of a reward at the end of the days work or at some time in the future will prompt the dog to alert during a search?

Dogs do react correctly to the correct scent most of the time. But the experiment shows that they will also alert when their handlers merely believe that the scent is there.

[OxfordBloo]

There must be some kind of signal to tell them that they are on work duty otherwise they'd yap all day.

Are the specific commands only used when working?

Of course they only react when tasked to. That is part of their training.

[Benice]

I realise what the point was, but in a real life situation there would be no visible marker to trigger a cue.
Was the experiment repeated without any visible markers, I wonder?

In an experiment such as described, it is in the handler's interest to cue a reaction - his dog passes the test. There is no such self interest in a real situation

Cueing can be be unconscious - IOW the handler doesn't know he's doing it.    But dogs are brilliant at picking up the slightest change in body language - just as cleverly as they can detect minute odours.

Unconscious cueing is certainly not a crime - but it is something which can creep in over time purely due to the closeness which exists between a dog and his trainer.

I believe one of the objects of the tests was to find ways of reducing the chances of this happening.

[Carew]

Of course they only react when tasked to. That is part of their training.

Which does not really explain why alerts to contaminants present at most sites  when tasked to do not render their deployment a waste of time, due to persistent alerting to residual pork products / old blood / bodily fluids etc.

We are led to believe that such contaminants may have been the cause of "Alerts McCann"

[John]

I still don't understand your basis for saying "The dogs were correct in two alerts." How can you possibly know that in the absence of any corroborating forensic evidence?

That's what it comes down to and as Martin Grime stated on many occasions, the dog alerts alone have no evidential reliability without corroborative forensic evidence.

[Benice]

Which does not really explain why alerts to contaminants present at most sites  when tasked to do not render their deployment a waste of time, due to persistent alerting to residual pork products / old blood / bodily fluids etc.

We are led to believe that such contaminants may have been the cause of "Alerts McCann"

Actually we are told by Martin Grime that the presence of a dead body at a spot where an alert had been made is not the only reason for an alert.    If the alert is corroborated by the body being found - or a confession being made etc.    then the dog WAS alerting to a dead body, but if no body is found then the other reasons for an alert which he mentions cannot be discounted.

[Carew]

Actually we are told by Martin Grime that the presence of a dead body at a spot where an alert had been made is not the only reason for an alert.    If the alert is corroborated by the body being found - or a confession being made etc.    then the dog WAS alerting to a dead body, but if no body is found then the other reasons for an alert which he mentions cannot be discounted.

With respect.............that doesn`t address the point about "why no continual alerts whilst on task."

I know what Martin Grime said.

[Lace]

The problems I have with the alert by Eddie are that Mr. Grime had to call Eddie back numerous times before he finally barked.    Also Eddie was trained as a rescue dog to start with and so could have smelt the scent of blood if something had been put in the wardrobe or on the floor with blood on it and then removed,  Eddie could still be smelling the scent from it,  especially as 5a had been shut up and it was warm weather.

If anyone can show me Eddie being called back numerous times in any of the other apartments then I might reconsider what I think.

Eddie was also very hot,  he was panting running around.    I have read that Cadaver dogs should not be hot or tired as the dog will alert in order to please and be able to rest.

[Benice]

With respect.............that doesn`t address the point about "why no continual alerts whilst on task."

I know what Martin Grime said.

Only Martin Grime can answer your question - it is his contention that his dogs could alert to the tiniest traces of residual scent being insitu- even after washing or after decades had passed.

IMO the dogs would most probably have alerted in other cars and other apartments had they been given the same time to search as in McCann related places -  because I simply can't believe that a drop of blood had never been spilt in any of those other places during previous years.