Were the dog alerts in any way significant?

[mercury]

No he wasn't.

On his profile, he gives as his base his home address in Oxford.

And unlike in the second enquiry, where we have seen actual UK police officers working on the ground in Portugal,  wearing their police-officer uniforms, Grime never wore his, with good reason.

It is an offence to imitate a police officer if you are not one.

In Portugal during the (now shelved) initial Madeleine investigation, Grime was not a serving UK police officer.

You will have to prove that Mr Grime was not employed by the police when he was in Portugal. In attempting to doing so and cover your libel, you will have to prove he lied consistently in all his police statements and also committed a  secondary criminal offence of pretending to be a police officer.

How Admin and moderators here allow such posts is shocking at the very best.

[mercury]

It's perfectly true that the word blood does not feature once in John Lowe's report ...

Can you let Brietta know? She is under the misconception that PJ officers blood was on the walls in the living room, I asked her for a cite but she told me to read Lowes report, which I did, and still found none, thanks

[mercury]

I have two FOI answers that, between them, confirm that ...

No.

Eleanor is right ...

Mr Ferry, still awaiting your FOI request answers from police that prove Mr Grime NEVER went to America with his dogs.

[OxfordBloo]

You will have to prove that Mr Grime was not employed by the police when he was in Portugal. In attempting to doing so and cover your libel, you will have to prove he lied consistently in all his police statements and also committed a  secondary criminal offence of pretending to be a police officer.

How Admin and moderators here allow such posts is shocking at the very best.

His retirement date is a matter of record- the end of July. Also on record is the fact that he was on long leave before retirement for the time he was in PdL. He was fully retired (and the dogs were unaccredited) when he went to Jersey.

[Mr Gray]

I bet he has a fairer idea than you though...I would say that is a fact

as you admit...he may have an idea...an opinion...but he doesn't know

[Alfred R Jones]

Probably a poorly calibrated instrument 
If a Swedish geezer has an instrument that is defective that is no reason for me to believe a similar instrument I am using is also defective. I would calibrate my instrument as a matter of course at regular intervals.
Ya'll seem to be getting into a muck sweat over doggies. I have already said [elsewhere on this forum] that I believe if a dog alerts there are three possibilities one of which has two separate sub divisions. The usefulness of the data being variable from "gotcha" to "about as helpful as teats on a boar". I don't happen to think dogs are a synthesis of Billy Batson and Paul Metcalfe. Nor do I subscribe to the theory they are by definition useless.

I don't happen to believe that dogs that falsely alert can be described as defective, I think that is somewhat unfair.  No one here is dissing the dogs (as you seem to be doing) merely stating that unconscious handler bias is a recognised and proven phenomenon in sniffer dog searches.

[Alice Purjorick]

I don't happen to believe that dogs that falsely alert can be described as defective, I think that is somewhat unfair.  No one here is dissing the dogs (as you seem to be doing) merely stating that unconscious handler bias is a recognised and proven phenomenon in sniffer dog searches.

You asked me how I accounted for the "woeful" performance of a  woofer on a job in Scandawegia did you not? I gave one possible reason.
OK so if we consider this as an instrument loop it has two components man and dog and a loop "communication" medium. If the loop is consistently incorrect there are several potential causes. The signal from the dog to the man is incorrect; the signal from the man to the dog is incorrect; the dog is defective; the man is defective; the wiring[communication medium] is defective.
All are possible, I fail to understand why you are labouring just one particular reason out of several, then attributing to me things I did not say. What precisely is your point about operator bias other than it is a recognised phenomenon?.
So if a doggy is cued by his handler and finds a piece of evidence that is upheld by further examination and tests is that piece of evidence nullified by the dog being subjected to operator bias?

[ferryman]

You asked me how I accounted for the "woeful" performance of a  woofer on a job in Scandawegia did you not? I gave one possible reason.
OK so if we consider this as an instrument loop it has two components man and dog and a loop "communication" medium. If the loop is consistently incorrect there are several potential causes. The signal from the dog to the man is incorrect; the signal from the man to the dog is incorrect; the dog is defective; the man is defective; the wiring[communication medium] is defective.
All are possible, I fail to understand why you are labouring just one particular reason out of several, then attributing to me things I did not say. What precisely is your point about operator bias other than it is a recognised phenomenon?.
So if a doggy is cued by his handler and finds a piece of evidence that is upheld by further examination and tests is that piece of evidence nullified by the dog being subjected to operator bias?

If, challenged on the findMadeleine stickers in the back of the Renault Scenic, do you suppose Grime would retort with the lame, dogs can't read?

Or would he come up with something better?

[G-Unit]

If, challenged on the findMadeleine stickers in the back of the Renault Scenic, do you suppose Grime would retort with the lame, dogs can't read?

Or would he come up with something better?

I think Martin Grimes was incredibly lucky. What with sub-standard dogs and handler cuing he still managed to persuade them to alert in the correct places; where forensics found DNA. I bet he breathed a sigh of relief at that. 

[Alice Purjorick]

If, challenged on the findMadeleine stickers in the back of the Renault Scenic, do you suppose Grime would retort with the lame, dogs can't read?

Or would he come up with something better?

I wasn't talking about Grime I was talking about the Scandawegian effort Alf asked me about.
I would neither know what Grime would say nor even hazard a guess.

[Brietta]

Can you let Brietta know? She is under the misconception that PJ officers blood was on the walls in the living room, I asked her for a cite but she told me to read Lowes report, which I did, and still found none, thanks

Don't be so silly ... I have never asserted police contamination of the walls in apartment 5A for the simple reason there was none in that place and I am sure you are as familiar with the FSS report as any  ... disingenuous of you to put words in my mouth however.

Had Keela been introduced to the areas of interest shown by Eddie in the other apartments and the same amount of time and encouragement given as in 5A to both dogs, who knows what other alerts might have been produced for the video?

[Carana]

I think Martin Grimes was incredibly lucky. What with sub-standard dogs and handler cuing he still managed to persuade them to alert in the correct places; where forensics found DNA. I bet he breathed a sigh of relief at that. 

I still don't follow. I don't see what is unusual in finding DNA in the only place you look for any following an indication that there might be useful evidence in that location. As it happens, there wasn't anything of interest found.

[Alfred R Jones]

You asked me how I accounted for the "woeful" performance of a  woofer on a job in Scandawegia did you not? I gave one possible reason.
OK so if we consider this as an instrument loop it has two components man and dog and a loop "communication" medium. If the loop is consistently incorrect there are several potential causes. The signal from the dog to the man is incorrect; the signal from the man to the dog is incorrect; the dog is defective; the man is defective; the wiring[communication medium] is defective.
All are possible, I fail to understand why you are labouring just one particular reason out of several, then attributing to me things I did not say. What precisely is your point about operator bias other than it is a recognised phenomenon?.
So if a doggy is cued by his handler and finds a piece of evidence that is upheld by further examination and tests is that piece of evidence nullified by the dog being subjected to operator bias?

a) what things did I attribute to you that you did not say? b) read my post again, I made my point precisely which is - that unconscious handler bias is a recognised and proven phenomenon in sniffer dog searches. 
So, if we can accept that neither dogs nor their handlers are infallible for reasons such as unconscious handler bias we can begin to understand how it is possible that dog(s) can alert in Apartment 5a & a Hire Car without it necessarily proving that the McCanns dunnit, a concept which a lot of people seem to struggle with.  It's really not that complicated!

[Carana]

From an older thread... although not what I was looking to find again.

However, it may be useful to take a step back...


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2138.10;

(...)
Victim recovery dogs from four different police forces were used during searches for kidnapped schoolgirl Shannon Matthews in Dewsbury in West Yorkshire in 2008.

The dogs found evidence of dead bodies, but officers later discovered the corpses were nothing to do with her disappearance.

"The properties searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died," according to the NPIA report.

"This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."

http://news.sky.com/story/844071/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work

[Mr Gray]

As  SY and many others are saying Maddie may still be alive it shows the alerts have no significance