Were the dog alerts in any way significant?

[Alfred R Jones]

Of course it did.  The physical evidence in the house played an important part in the case.

What physical evidence pointing to Joana's murder was discovered in the house?

[lordpookles]

The Cadaver dog handbook:

https://sardog.org/index.php/downloads/search-and-rescue-books/1-cadaver-dog-handbook-forensic-training-and-tactics-2000-ww1/file

I read the first page and became instantly bored, but if anyone else finds this interesting 

[John]

What physical evidence pointing to Joana's murder was discovered in the house?

Lots and lots.  The clothes and shoes she wore to the shop, the food she brought back, the blood stains on the wall, in the fridge and on the shoes, the attempt to cleanse the scene etc...

But the Cipriano case was not determined by physical evidence but on circumstantial evidence and on confessions attributed to both Leonor and her brother João at various stages of the long proceedings.

To remind readers.  The mother Leonor originally told the police that she had hit the girl, she had struck her head on a wall and died.  She added that her brother João who was in the house at the time carried the girl out back and hid her.  Leonor was later unable to find her hiding place.

João for his part claimed that he had hid the body at various locatons but even after police had taken him on several searches no remains were ever found.

Leonor later recanted her confession to murder and claimed that her brother had in fact taken his niece to sell her to some foreigners but that the deal had fallen through.  For reasons she has never disclosed the girl ended up dead.

[G-Unit]

[quote removed as off topic]

I find it boring to be honest to get deeply into statistical analysis of the probability of false alerts etc., but then I find anything mathematical boring. As for statistics, I'm of the 'Lies, damned lies and statistics' viewpoint.

It matters not what the statistics say imo, because we're not looking at these dogs in general, we're looking at just two specific dogs in a specific case.

[pathfinder73]

Well there is a choice. Either Keela does react to trace amounts or she makes multiple false alerts as she has alerted many times when no residue was found.

Given that we know from experiments that dogs are usually about eighty per cent correct, that would be surprising.

The FBI consider them the best - 80% is nowhere near the best. The dog alerts in this case are significant as SY know! Find a case where Eddie has alerted to cadaver scent and the missing person has later turned up alive? 20% of his alerts in cases must be wrong so it will be easy for you to find one. Don't worry the press would have a field day so it should be easy to find. Renowned K9 dog Eddie Alerted to Death Scent but the Missing Person has turned up Alive! Get searching his cases 

[OxfordBloo]

The FBI consider them the best - 80% is nowhere near the best. The dog alerts in this case are significant as SY know! Find a case where Eddie has alerted to cadaver scent and the missing person has later turned up alive? 20% of his alerts in cases must be wrong so it will be easy for you to find one. Don't worry the press would have a field day so it should be easy to find. Renowned K9 dog Eddie Alerted to Death Scent but the Missing Person has turned up Alive!

You will of course provide cites for each of those statements Except those made by Grime).

Eddie alerted in Jersey. No body ever found.

Try to stand up the FBI quote.

Over to you.

[Carana]

Of course it did.  The physical evidence in the house played an important part in the case.

Not the sub-forum to argue about that, but I really wouldn't you or myself to have been subject to such non "evidence".

[OxfordBloo]

[quote removed as off topic]

I find it boring to be honest to get deeply into statistical analysis of the probability of false alerts etc., but then I find anything mathematical boring. As for statistics, I'm of the 'Lies, damned lies and statistics' viewpoint.

It matters not what the statistics say imo, because we're not looking at these dogs in general, we're looking at just two specific dogs in a specific case.

"Don't confuse the situation with facts."

[John]

Members who should know better are asked to please stop goading our new member OxfordBloo. TY

[Carana]

What physical evidence pointing to Joana's murder was discovered in the house?

I'm still waiting for evidence beyond "common experience" that she ever got home...

[John]

Not the sub-forum to argue about that, but I really wouldn't you or myself to have been subject to such non "evidence".

I totally agree but it was the other stuff which convicted them and rightly so.  If they were both so innocent why did they make up the cock and bull story about killing her and hiding the body?  It really isn't the sort of thing you do if your child has been abducted or is it?

Noticeably, it was the mother who received the larger sentence for murder while brother João got a slightly reduced sentence for his involvement after the fact.

I'm still waiting for evidence beyond "common experience" that she ever got home...

Her shoes which she wore and the merchandise she purchased from the cafe should be a clue.  Add to that the fact that she was seen walking home by a neighbour.

[pathfinder73]

You will of course provide cites for each of those statements Except those made by Grime).

Eddie alerted in Jersey. No body ever found.

Try to stand up the FBI quote.

Over to you.

I don't need to. I know the dogs were right in this case. Eddie proves when he alerts to cadaver a body is found. Never the missing person has turned up alive. You are the one questioning them so get researching on the dogs in this case not general reports. They have been involved in many cases and FBI body farm - passed with flying colours.

The FBI considers them -- Martin Grime and his 7-year-old, English Springer Spaniel, Eddie -- two of the best in the law enforcement speciality of canine forensics, able to find evidence everyone else missed.

Grime and Eddie are in high demand, world wide. Getting them to Walker County from England to help solve Theresa Parker's disappearance is an indication of how high a priority her case is for the FBI, according to one FBI agent close to the case.

FBI Agent John Parrish said dogs such as Eddie, a 7-year-old English springer spaniel, are used in "violent crime matters," such as the Parker case.

He also said search dogs assisted authorities in April and provided valuable help. The additional help marks a "new phase of the investigation," Agent Parrish said.

"We wanted to bring in Mr. Grime because he is renowned for his ability to do certain things," Mr. Parrish said. "We (will) go to areas that are of investigative interest to us and not only eliminate (leads, but) follow up on leads."

[G-Unit]

"Don't confuse the situation with facts."

Are statistics facts?

[Carana]

I totally agree but it was the other stuff which convicted them and rightly so.  If they were both so innocent why did they make up the cock and bull story about killing her and hiding the body?  It isn't really tge sort of thing you do if your chikd has been abducted or is it?

You may have missed links to why people can falsely confess. This is not the right sub-forum, John, we'll get told off by Eleanor or Anna. ;)

[Carana]

Lots and lots.  The clothes and shoes she wore to the shop, the food she brought back, the blood stains on the wall, in the fridge and on the shoes, the attempt to cleanse the scene etc...

But the Cipriano case was not determined by physical evidence but on circumstantial evidence and on confessions attributed to both Leonor and her brother João at various stages of the long proceedings.

To remind readers.  The mother Leonor originally told the police that she had hit the girl, she had struck her head on a wall and died.  She added that her brother João who was in the house at the time carried the girl out back and hid her.  Leonor was later unable to find her hiding place.

João for his part claimed that he had hid the body at various locatons but even after police had taken him on several searches no remains were ever found.

Leonor later recanted her confession to murder and claimed that her brother had in fact taken his niece to sell her to some foreigners but that the deal had fallen through.  For reasons she has never disclosed the girl ended up dead.

I disagree. I find the so-called "evidence" to be absurd. There is a sub-forum dedicated to this girl's disappearance.