Author Topic: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?  (Read 174981 times)

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Offline mercury

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #690 on: May 08, 2015, 10:49:44 PM »
evidence of alien abduction
Oh, right you are then I guess

OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #691 on: May 08, 2015, 10:50:38 PM »
One wonders why police send in cadaver dogs into any investigation at all going by some of the "expert opinions" here that they can't be "trusted"

One wonders why ACPO and the NPIA called for a reassessment of the use of cadaver dogs after teir failures in PdL and Jersey and the waste of police time in the Shannon Matthews case.

Offline mercury

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #692 on: May 08, 2015, 10:52:35 PM »
One wonders why ACPO and the NPIA called for a reassessment of the use of cadaver dogs after teir failures in PdL and Jersey and the waste of police time in the Shannon Matthews case.

You may, I dont deal in jokes, just unanswered questions

Offline Carew

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #693 on: May 08, 2015, 10:53:39 PM »
Would you kindly present evidence of me accusing the handler of deliberately cueing the dogs or admit you have mistepresented my views and apologise.  Many thanks.

You`ve represented your own views.

No chance.

Good night.


Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #694 on: May 08, 2015, 10:55:46 PM »
You`ve represented your own views.

No chance.

Good night.
No, that won't do.  Back up your accusations with evidence please, or admit you "traduced" me!

Offline mercury

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #695 on: May 09, 2015, 11:09:26 PM »
Has a consensus being reached yet? As to whether the dog alerts were "in any way" significant?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #696 on: May 09, 2015, 11:14:31 PM »
Has a consensus being reached yet? As to whether the dog alerts were "in any way" significant?

Maddie may still be alive seems to be an accepted fact...therefore the alerts cannot be correct

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #697 on: May 09, 2015, 11:33:10 PM »
One wonders why police send in cadaver dogs into any investigation at all going by some of the "expert opinions" here that they can't be "trusted"

Because they are not aware of the wealth of knowledge about the unreliability of cadaver dogs on this forum and to coin a phrase "this is where it's at baby"?
or
They believe cadaver dogs are a useful tool?
Of course according to Sky News ACPO and NPIA are very unhappy with the performance of cadaver woofers. One wonders what the rest of the worlds law enforcement agencies think?
In one form or another such dogs had been in operation for up to 20 years before the McCann case.......join up the dots. I am sure some on here could obtain gainful employment advising the FBI, the RCMP and the US Military.

"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline mercury

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #698 on: May 09, 2015, 11:37:30 PM »
Maddie may still be alive seems to be an accepted fact...therefore the alerts cannot be correct

That opinion doesn't answer my question but thanks

Offline mercury

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #699 on: May 09, 2015, 11:39:25 PM »
Because they are not aware of the wealth of knowledge about the unreliability of cadaver dogs on this forum and to coin a phrase "this is where it's at baby"?
or
They believe cadaver dogs are a useful tool?
Of course according to Sky News ACPO and NPIA are very unhappy with the performance of cadaver woofers. One wonders what the rest of the worlds law enforcement agencies think?
In one form or another such dogs had been in operation for up to 20 years before the McCann case.......join up the dots. I am sure some on here could obtain gainful employment advising the FBI, the RCMP and the US Military.

Do I detect a smidgeon of sarcasm here perchance?

 8(>((

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #700 on: May 10, 2015, 12:50:55 AM »
Do I detect a smidgeon of sarcasm here perchance?

 8(>((

Less than that  8(0(*
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #701 on: May 10, 2015, 01:24:46 AM »
of course grime cued the dogs..it's standard practice

The following extract is taken from the comprehensive overview of Forensics by Dr Zakaria Erzinclioglu (Forensics - True Crime Scene Investigations: Carlton/ Sevenoaks, 2004) and illustrates perfectly clearly how those with a professional concern for the appropriate deployment of dogs in law enforcement, have a rather clearer understanding of experimental verification and how to garner evidence than do their amateur critics. And in that category I do not hesitate to include members of the Judiciary.
 
"Cloths are handed to each of the people involved in the experiment; they handle them and then place them in special jars, with each cloth in a separate jar. The jars are placed in a row in the experiment room and the dog and handler come in. The dog sniffs each jar in turn and then identifies correctly the jar with the right cloth... the jars are moved around in the absence of the dog, who returns with his handler and correctly identifies the cloth.
 
"These results are very impressive, but, to my mind, the results of the next experiment are the most impressive of all. The jar with the 'right' cloth is removed completely, leaving all the other jars, plus another to keep the number constant. What will the dog do now?
 
"As with the other experiments, the dog is led by its handler into the room. The dog sniffs each jar in turn. It is puzzled. It starts again, sniffing each jar diligently. It stops and looks up at its handler and then looks back at the jars, It then starts to whine to its owner and walks away from the jar; no doubt it feels it has failed in its task.
 
"But it has not; it has succeeded brilliantly, for the dog has not chosen a second best, a nearest odour to the one it was seeking. The smell was either present in one of the jars or it was not. It is as simple as that. The dog would not identify a false jar even to please its handler; it would rather fail than do that."
 
This author goes on to say, "I believe that the use of dog evidence in British courts would be a great step forward in the fight against crime." He concludes the chapter thus:
 
"Attempts have been made to produce a machine - an electronic nose - that can do what a dog does. These devices have been very successful in determining whether a food product, such as wine or cheese, is fresh and in a fit condition to be consumed. However, their application to criminal investigation has not yet been demonstrated. A dog is still the more reliable tool."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id260.html
 
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #702 on: May 10, 2015, 05:31:47 AM »
Has a consensus being reached yet? As to whether the dog alerts were "in any way" significant?

No consensus is possible.

There are two possible views

1/ The Scientific and Judicial one that dogs are useful tools in discovery of evidence, but with awareness of the fact tat all measurement is less than perfect and that there will be an error rate in any sequence of dog alerts. These errors will be caused by simple errors that all organisms are open to and miscommunication between handler and dog.

2/ Contrary to Scientific and Judicial rules, Dogs are Gods who never make any errors. Handlers are so perfect that unlike every assessment of human animal behaviour they alone are totally free of any bias or cueing. Dog alerts are so important they even override the absence of true forensic evidence.

OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #703 on: May 10, 2015, 05:45:32 AM »
The following extract is taken from the comprehensive overview of Forensics by  (Forensics - True Crime Scene Investigations: Carlton/ Sevenoaks, 2004) and illustrates perfectly clearly how those with a professional concern for the appropriate deployment of dogs in law enforcement, have a rather clearer understanding of experimental verification and how to garner evidence than do their amateur critics. And in that category I do not hesitate to include members of the Judiciary.
 
"Cloths are handed to each of the people involved in the experiment; they handle them and then place them in special jars, with each cloth in a separate jar. The jars are placed in a row in the experiment room and the dog and handler come in. The dog sniffs each jar in turn and then identifies correctly the jar with the right cloth... the jars are moved around in the absence of the dog, who returns with his handler and correctly identifies the cloth.
 
"These results are very impressive, but, to my mind, the results of the next experiment are the most impressive of all. The jar with the 'right' cloth is removed completely, leaving all the other jars, plus another to keep the number constant. What will the dog do now?
 
"As with the other experiments, the dog is led by its handler into the room. The dog sniffs each jar in turn. It is puzzled. It starts again, sniffing each jar diligently. It stops and looks up at its handler and then looks back at the jars, It then starts to whine to its owner and walks away from the jar; no doubt it feels it has failed in its task.
 
"But it has not; it has succeeded brilliantly, for the dog has not chosen a second best, a nearest odour to the one it was seeking. The smell was either present in one of the jars or it was not. It is as simple as that. The dog would not identify a false jar even to please its handler; it would rather fail than do that."
 
This author goes on to say, "I believe that the use of dog evidence in British courts would be a great step forward in the fight against crime." He concludes the chapter thus:
 
"Attempts have been made to produce a machine - an electronic nose - that can do what a dog does. These devices have been very successful in determining whether a food product, such as wine or cheese, is fresh and in a fit condition to be consumed. However, their application to criminal investigation has not yet been demonstrated. A dog is still the more reliable tool."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id260.html

Dr Zakaria Erzinclioglu was a specialist in - insects.

He worked in Forensic entomology. He wrote some popular books on forensics. He did no research onto dog behaviour, merely summarising for the non specialist public. His writings are neither investigations nor peer reviewed.

There are a number of blinded peer reviewed scientific articles by specialists in animal behaviour that do consider the issue. Erzinclioglu's summary ignores those papers that cast doubt on the accuracy of dog alerts.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1412780/Zakaria-Erzinclioglu.html


Offline G-Unit

Re: Were the dog alerts in any way significant?
« Reply #704 on: May 10, 2015, 06:10:05 AM »
Dr Zakaria Erzinclioglu was a specialist in - insects.

He worked in Forensic entomology. He wrote some popular books on forensics. He did no research onto dog behaviour, merely summarising for the non specialist public. His writings are neither investigations nor peer reviewed.

There are a number of blinded peer reviewed scientific articles by specialists in animal behaviour that do consider the issue. Erzinclioglu's summary ignores those papers that cast doubt on the accuracy of dog alerts.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1412780/Zakaria-Erzinclioglu.html



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