Author Topic: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.  (Read 69346 times)

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Offline pathfinder73

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #150 on: May 08, 2015, 07:29:16 PM »
If I can quote a case where Eddie reacted and the person later turned up, will you admit that cadaver dogs are fallible?

If you can find a case where Eddie has alerted to cadaver scent where there hasn't been a death involved then I will definitely admit Eddie is. These dogs were chosen by the FBI because they don't get things wrong. They were regularly tested and trained every day to do their job so good luck.

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In 2001 the dogs helped recover the body of Shane Collier in the Yorkshire Dales, enabling Barnsley officers to gain a murder conviction, while at the end of last year the FBI sought their help in a ten-year-old murder inquiry in the United States.

Border collie Frankie and springer spaniel Eddie work with PCs John Ellis and Martin Grime as part of the Victim Search team.

The two dogs, who cost £1,000 a day to hire from the South Yorkshire police force, were used earlier this year in the hunt for missing north Devon teenager Charlotte Pinkney and Bradford-born student Shafilea Ahmed, 17, who went missing from her home in Warrington last September. Also Alicia Eborne. Police dogs trained in sniffing out human remains were today searching the site of a new housing development in the hunt for missing mum Julie Crocker.

Their expert services were also called on by the FBI, but the two dogs were too busy to respond.

Detective dogs who sniff at less than £1,000 a day
28 April 2004

Daily Mail
Chris Brooke

They may only be police dogs but Eddie and Frankie are on a higher pay scale than the Chief Constable and the Prime Minister. Such is the sniffing power of these canine detectives that their force charges £1,000 when they are hired out for a single day's work. Even at that price, they are in great demand across Britain and even from Europe and the U.S.

Not only can they find a body, no matter how well it may be hidden, but they have the ability to sniff out microscopic traces of blood or human remains. They have gone under floorboards, in rivers, caves, lofts and woodland in search of bodies. Even human remains that have been buried for years will not evade them.

Eddie, a three-year-old springer spaniel and formerly an unwanted pet, teamed up with Frankie, a four-year-old border collie and former stray, when South Yorkshire Police were looking for two dogs to train for the specialist work. Now available to any force willing to pay the £1,000-a-day going rate, Eddie and Frankie are regarded as the country's premier police sniffer dogs.

Over the last year they have worked for 17 forces across the UK.

Their biggest job lasted ten days and made £10,000. They have been hired out on average twice a week - making a total of around £100,000. The revenue raised is put back into funding the force.

Handlers PC Martin Grimes[SIC s/b 'Grime'], 47, and PC John Ellis, 50, began by training the dogs in standard police techniques. They went on to develop a specialist training programme to hone the dogs' extraordinary abilities.

Eddie and Frankie have been called in to help in some of the most difficult murder cases. They were recently flown to Northern Ireland where they found the body of missing pensioner Attracta Harron, 65, buried under 18 inches of clay in a riverbank at County Tyrone.

The victim's relatives were so grateful they asked to meet the dogs.

PC Grimes said:
'It appeared to be a comfort to them. If it hadn't have been for the dogs we wouldn't have found her.'

A man has since appeared in court charged with the murder. [Trevor Hamilton, later convicted]

The dogs played a major role in locating the body of Barnsley murder victim Shane Collier, 21, who had been cut up and buried five months earlier in remote woodland.

They have been recruited to find the body of 17-year-old Charlotte Pinkney, who was killed after a party in Ilfracombe, Devon, and have been called in to help police in Northern Ireland try to solve a backlog of 150 murders stretching back 25 years.

PC Ellis, a dog handler for 25 years, said:
'They are both intelligent dogs and they do an incredible job. They have become so good that they can detect even microscopic amounts of blood or other fluids. 'In these days of DNA testing, even those amounts of material can be the difference in solving a case.

'We have to rely on investigation teams placing us in the right places, but even then it can involve searching large areas. 'The dogs work brilliantly in any terrain. One day we might be searching moorland and the next we could be in a city centre. They can also work in all weathers, although when the weather is hot we have to be aware of fatigue and rest them every 20 minutes.'

The 'superdogs for hire' scheme began after a business plan was put together by the handlers and approved by South Yorkshire Police chiefs.

PC Ellis said they expected to do 'perhaps two jobs a year,' but are currently doing two a week.

Bordie collies are recognised as the world's most intelligent breed and springer spaniels are traditionally bred as a retriever dog.

Like all dogs of their breeds, Eddie and Frankie have an acute sense of smell. The difference between them and any 'normal' sniffer dog is that they have been put through a specific and specialist training regime devised by their handlers to make them into superdogs.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 07:51:20 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Carana

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #151 on: May 08, 2015, 07:36:36 PM »
Neither does Martin Grime say that Eddie is fallible. If you assert that he is then it's your place to provide a basis for your assertion.

In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations.
However, from a forensic point of view and from confirmations of scientific testimonies, the dogs appear to be extremely exact. But, forensic confirmation is required in all cases so as to be included as proof. The CSI dog is trained using only human blood. And using a wide spectrum of donors to ensure that the dog does not individualize them.
EVRD used to be trained using swine (pigs) as their odour is the closest to that of humans. But most of the time, however, the dog was trained using the odour of a human cadaver. Operationally, the dog has ignored large amounts of animal remains/bones when locating human decomposition.
In this case, for example, not all the alert signals have been investigated by the appropriate agencies in order to provide forensic comparations, in spite of indications to the contrary. It also should be taken into account that the procedures for forensic testing are still less discriminating than the system of dogs' smell.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations.


But there weren't... so what's he talking about?


Offline G-Unit

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #152 on: May 08, 2015, 07:50:46 PM »
In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations.


But there weren't... so what's he talking about?

Behind couch + 2 alerts in car.
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Offline Carana

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #153 on: May 08, 2015, 07:56:35 PM »
Behind couch + 2 alerts in car.

This deposition was submitted without me having seen or having knowledge of the final report from the forensic agency responsible for analyzing the evidence submitted in this case.

??

Offline G-Unit

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #154 on: May 08, 2015, 08:19:58 PM »
This deposition was submitted without me having seen or having knowledge of the final report from the forensic agency responsible for analyzing the evidence submitted in this case.

??

He probably knew that samples had been found but not the results.
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
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Offline Carana

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #155 on: May 08, 2015, 08:28:16 PM »
He probably knew that samples had been found but not the results.

A bit misleading isnt it? Positive forensic results of what? DNA? Where in a holiday apartment or a hire car would unidentified DNA be unusual? Aside from an efficient LCN lab, where would it be unusual to find DNA?

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #156 on: May 08, 2015, 08:29:12 PM »
No. A single failure indicates fallibility.

and the success rate is also relevant.

OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #157 on: May 08, 2015, 08:37:14 PM »
and the success rate is also relevant.

And all academic research shows them to be considerably other than fallible.

OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #158 on: May 08, 2015, 08:40:32 PM »
If you can find a case where Eddie has alerted to cadaver scent where there hasn't been a death involved then I will definitely admit Eddie is. These dogs were chosen by the FBI because they don't get things wrong. They were regularly tested and trained every day to do their job so good luck.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 2001 the dogs helped recover the body of Shane Collier in the Yorkshire Dales, enabling Barnsley officers to gain a murder conviction, while at the end of last year the FBI sought their help in a ten-year-old murder inquiry in the United States.

Border collie Frankie and springer spaniel Eddie work with PCs John Ellis and Martin Grime as part of the Victim Search team.

The two dogs, who cost £1,000 a day to hire from the South Yorkshire police force, were used earlier this year in the hunt for missing north Devon teenager Charlotte Pinkney and Bradford-born student Shafilea Ahmed, 17, who went missing from her home in Warrington last September. Also Alicia Eborne. Police dogs trained in sniffing out human remains were today searching the site of a new housing development in the hunt for missing mum Julie Crocker.

Their expert services were also called on by the FBI, but the two dogs were too busy to respond.

Detective dogs who sniff at less than £1,000 a day
28 April 2004

Daily Mail
Chris Brooke

They may only be police dogs but Eddie and Frankie are on a higher pay scale than the Chief Constable and the Prime Minister. Such is the sniffing power of these canine detectives that their force charges £1,000 when they are hired out for a single day's work. Even at that price, they are in great demand across Britain and even from Europe and the U.S.

Not only can they find a body, no matter how well it may be hidden, but they have the ability to sniff out microscopic traces of blood or human remains. They have gone under floorboards, in rivers, caves, lofts and woodland in search of bodies. Even human remains that have been buried for years will not evade them.

Eddie, a three-year-old springer spaniel and formerly an unwanted pet, teamed up with Frankie, a four-year-old border collie and former stray, when South Yorkshire Police were looking for two dogs to train for the specialist work. Now available to any force willing to pay the £1,000-a-day going rate, Eddie and Frankie are regarded as the country's premier police sniffer dogs.

Over the last year they have worked for 17 forces across the UK.

Their biggest job lasted ten days and made £10,000. They have been hired out on average twice a week - making a total of around £100,000. The revenue raised is put back into funding the force.

Handlers PC Martin Grimes[SIC s/b 'Grime'], 47, and PC John Ellis, 50, began by training the dogs in standard police techniques. They went on to develop a specialist training programme to hone the dogs' extraordinary abilities.

Eddie and Frankie have been called in to help in some of the most difficult murder cases. They were recently flown to Northern Ireland where they found the body of missing pensioner Attracta Harron, 65, buried under 18 inches of clay in a riverbank at County Tyrone.

The victim's relatives were so grateful they asked to meet the dogs.

PC Grimes said:
'It appeared to be a comfort to them. If it hadn't have been for the dogs we wouldn't have found her.'

A man has since appeared in court charged with the murder. [Trevor Hamilton, later convicted]

The dogs played a major role in locating the body of Barnsley murder victim Shane Collier, 21, who had been cut up and buried five months earlier in remote woodland.

They have been recruited to find the body of 17-year-old Charlotte Pinkney, who was killed after a party in Ilfracombe, Devon, and have been called in to help police in Northern Ireland try to solve a backlog of 150 murders stretching back 25 years.

PC Ellis, a dog handler for 25 years, said:
'They are both intelligent dogs and they do an incredible job. They have become so good that they can detect even microscopic amounts of blood or other fluids. 'In these days of DNA testing, even those amounts of material can be the difference in solving a case.

'We have to rely on investigation teams placing us in the right places, but even then it can involve searching large areas. 'The dogs work brilliantly in any terrain. One day we might be searching moorland and the next we could be in a city centre. They can also work in all weathers, although when the weather is hot we have to be aware of fatigue and rest them every 20 minutes.'

The 'superdogs for hire' scheme began after a business plan was put together by the handlers and approved by South Yorkshire Police chiefs.

PC Ellis said they expected to do 'perhaps two jobs a year,' but are currently doing two a week.

Bordie collies are recognised as the world's most intelligent breed and springer spaniels are traditionally bred as a retriever dog.

Like all dogs of their breeds, Eddie and Frankie have an acute sense of smell. The difference between them and any 'normal' sniffer dog is that they have been put through a specific and specialist training regime devised by their handlers to make them into superdogs.


That is unsupported self publicity.

I repeat my question- if I can give you an example of a VRD dog  (or even more than one) that alerted and later the live person was found, will you drop your resistance to admitting their fallibility?

Offline pathfinder73

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #159 on: May 08, 2015, 08:41:29 PM »

That is unsupported self publicity.

I repeat my question- if I can give you an example of a VRD dog  (or even more than one) that alerted and later the live person was found, will you drop your resistance to admitting their fallibility?

No it has to be Eddie not a normal sniffer dog.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #160 on: May 08, 2015, 08:43:06 PM »
No it has to be Eddie not a normal sniffer dog.

Eddie is only an EVRD because Grime renamed him.

If you insist he is different for any other reason, please give a cite.

OxfordBloo

  • Guest
Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #161 on: May 08, 2015, 08:44:56 PM »
After the PdL and Jersey fiascos with Eddie and Keela, the independent National Police Improvement Agency called for a complete overhaul of the VRD system.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 11:12:39 AM by John »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #162 on: May 08, 2015, 08:50:47 PM »
After the PdL and Jersey fiascos with Eddie and Keela, the independent National Police Improvement Agency called for a complete overhaul of the VRD system.

'People aren't right 100 per cent of the time. Otherwise they wouldn't be human.' (Martin Grime)

« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 11:13:09 AM by John »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #163 on: May 08, 2015, 08:52:27 PM »
After the PdL and Jersey fiascos with Eddie and Keela, the independent National Police Improvement Agency called for a complete overhaul of the VRD system.

You seem to have spectacularly failed to appreciate the figures I posted earlier which show all the possibilities and associated probabilities. If it too hard for you, let me know and I can explain further.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 11:13:25 AM by John »
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #164 on: May 08, 2015, 08:53:07 PM »
And all academic research shows them to be considerably other than fallible.

Why do police and other services reply dogs ?

Perhaps you should remind us.